Getting Fiber Based Paper Flat

unityofsaints · Jun 29, 2022

For what it's worth I had an absolute nightmare getting Foma paper flat in various sizes and using various methods. I've switched to Ilford (for other reasons) and it's extremely straightforward by comparison, just dry back-to-back and then flatten using books.

GRHazelton · Jun 29, 2022

Back in the day we used an ethelyne glycol solution; I don't remember the trade name, but it may be still available. It worked by making the paper slightly hygroscopic so that the paper absorbs some moisture and tends to stay flat. It worked pretty well.
Note that ethelyne glycol is poisonous; polyethelyne glycol is non toxic and is used in preparing salad bowls to prevent splitting Here's some info on PEG aimed at woodworkers, but the info might be useful: owic.oregonstate.edu/sites/default/files/pubs/peg.pdf IIRC PEG is also in the noxious prep taken before a colonoscopyl

Mainecoonmaniac · Jun 29, 2022

nyoung said:
Ok,
I haven't done any printing on fiber based paper since high school but I want take it up again out of dissatisfaction with the tonal range of the RC papers.

So, two questions:

How do you get the darn things to dry flat? I have had, in the distant past, many bad experiences with dryers.

Does anyone still use ferrotype plates? If so, how does one use them? I long ago inherited 4 or 5 but I don't quite get how you use them.

I've been printing with FB paper for decades and here's my experience regards with prints curling. I like to dry them on fiberglass screens. If they dry too fast, they'll curl. The slower it dries, the less chance of curling. Once they're dried, I flatten them by pressing them between books. I have never been able to get FB prints flat as RC prints. As for the tonal range of RC papers, glossy will deeper blacks than mat paper. I may have to stop using FB paper because the drought here in California will make washing FB prints difficult.

ic-racer · Jun 29, 2022

Ethylene glycol one of the few poisons treated with beer.

Sirius Glass · Jun 29, 2022

When I use my drum print dryer the FB prints come out a little floppy so I lay them flat to cool. If they are laid flat, they will stay flat.

CMoore · Jun 29, 2022

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I've been printing with FB paper for decades and here's my experience regards with prints curling. I like to dry them on fiberglass screens. If they dry too fast, they'll curl. The slower it dries, the less chance of curling. Once they're dried, I flatten them by pressing them between books. I have never been able to get FB prints flat as RC prints. As for the tonal range of RC papers, glossy will deeper blacks than mat paper. I may have to stop using FB paper because the drought here in California will make washing FB prints difficult.

This is what i do...............and what i assumed most people did.
But it makes me wonder, what do you guys mean by "flat".?
Flat like RC Paper just from it drying.?
I cannot see that ever happening............but who cares.
It will be flat if you mount it, if not mounted, how "flat" does it need to be.?

Mainecoonmaniac · Jun 30, 2022

CMoore said:
This is what i do...............and what i assumed most people did.
But it makes me wonder, what do you guys mean by "flat".?
Flat like RC Paper just from it drying.?
I cannot see that ever happening............but who cares.
It will be flat if you mount it, if not mounted, how "flat" does it need to be.?

I agree. My FB prints are always slightly curls towards the emulsion side. When I frame my prints, I use an over mat to flatten it down in the frame. If somebody wants absolutely flat prints, they could dry mount it on gator board.

GregY · Jun 30, 2022

Like others here, I dry my prints on screens. If you get/are serious about darkroom printing, the next step which often goes overlooked is presentation...... So getting a dry mount press serves the double purpose of being useful to flatten FB prints and also mount them.

Sirius Glass · Jun 30, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
When I use my drum print dryer the FB prints come out a little floppy so I lay them flat to cool. If they are laid flat, they will stay flat.

Same with RC papers.

mshchem · Jun 30, 2022

Seal brand dry mount equipment used to sell enormous thick, enameled steel weights for pressing mounted prints coming from the dry mount press. I stumbled on a horde of these things, work great. My wife is an artist, she keeps stealing my weights .

GregY · Jun 30, 2022

mshchem said:
Seal brand dry mount equipment used to sell enormous thick, enameled steel weights for pressing mounted prints coming from the dry mount press. I stumbled on a horde of these things, work great. My wife is an artist, she keeps stealing my weights .

I put my under a piece of plate glass until they cool

Paul Verizzo · Jul 1, 2022

nyoung said:
Ok,
I haven't done any printing on fiber based paper since high school but I want take it up again out of dissatisfaction with the tonal range of the RC papers.

So, two questions:

How do you get the darn things to dry flat? I have had, in the distant past, many bad experiences with dryers.

Does anyone still use ferrotype plates? If so, how does one use them? I long ago inherited 4 or 5 but I don't quite get how you use them.

There is zero difference in tonal range between fiber and RC. Emulsions are the same.

I'm old enough to remember the horror wars of the introduction of RC papers. So many lies, so many misunderstandings.

I've no issue with those that want to print on fiber. But don't pretend it is somehow superior. The polyethylene used top and bottom on RC papers will outlive us by a thousand years. And save water in washing in the here and now.

gone · Jul 1, 2022

My FB prints look like the image is IN the paper, while my RC prints look like the image is ON the paper. That's the fundamental difference to me., at least w/ matte papers. So while the emulsions may be similar, the paper isn't, and that seems to make the images different. Displaying prints under glass will often minimize the differences between FB and RC.

The deepest blacks appear to come from RC, GL paper, but those reflections make it a moot point.

VinceInMT · Jul 1, 2022

I’ve been printing on mostly RC for the past few years but had a mini-exhibition/critique to attend this week and decided to print some recent work on FB. It was Ilford double weight glossy and has a pretty hefty curl to it, right out of the box. I dried on screens and the same lengthwise curls returned after drying. I mounted the prints so it wasn’t an issue but was surprised that it was curled out of the box. It was a box that had been opened for a while and stored in my dry, basement, 65 degree darkroom. Our average humidity is pretty low.

logan2z · Jul 1, 2022

VinceInMT said:
I’ve been printing on mostly RC for the past few years but had a mini-exhibition/critique to attend this week and decided to print some recent work on FB. It was Ilford double weight glossy and has a pretty hefty curl to it, right out of the box. I dried on screens and the same lengthwise curls returned after drying. I mounted the prints so it wasn’t an issue but was surprised that it was curled out of the box. It was a box that had been opened for a while and stored in my dry, basement, 65 degree darkroom. Our average humidity is pretty low.

Ilford FB always seems to have a curve to it right out of the box. I usually have to put some small weights on the easel blades to keep it flat during exposure.

I dry it face down on drying screens which minimizes curling while it dries, and then flatten using a dry mount press.

VinceInMT · Jul 1, 2022

logan2z said:
I dry it face down on drying screens which minimizes curling while it dries, and then flatten using a dry mount press.

Ah, face down. I’ll try that next time. Thanks.

mshchem · Jul 1, 2022

Paul Verizzo said:
There is zero difference in tonal range between fiber and RC. Emulsions are the same.

I'm old enough to remember the horror wars of the introduction of RC papers. So many lies, so many misunderstandings.

I've no issue with those that want to print on fiber. But don't pretend it is somehow superior. The polyethylene used top and bottom on RC papers will outlive us by a thousand years. And save water in washing in the here and now.

I still print on fiber, but the latest versions of Ilford's rc paper are fantastic.

B+WFriend · Aug 2, 2022

This is a great discussion. I’ve tried lots of methods over the years, none have been perfect, but satisfactory. I’d love to try the ferrotyping thing some day, I’ve always wondered how some gallery prints are so perfectly smooth and glossy, maybe that’s what’s going on.
Anybody got a spare plate I could try…? Are there good books on the subject? Thanks!

Bill Burk · Aug 19, 2022

VinceInMT said:
Ah, face down. I’ll try that next time. Thanks.

No! Face down will introduce a screen pattern. Last thing you want is for your silver gelatin print to look like an ink-deposit print.

Also the screen pattern persists as a relative hardness pattern. I once decided to selenium tone some prints after they had dried (face-down on a screen). The screen pattern was accentuated.

logan2z · Aug 19, 2022

Bill Burk said:
No! Face down will introduce a screen pattern.

I was reluctant to dry fiber paper face down because I was concerned about that as well, but I've never seen it happen.

Fangzhou · Aug 21, 2022

I just use a heat press after it is dry

Bill Burk · Aug 22, 2022

To be fair, my screens are made with ultralight bug screen material intended for ultralight backpack tents. The screen is soft and flexible and stays in contact when the print dries.

Other people usually use window screen material which is harder and more taut. The prints probably pop up off the screen while they dry.

But I am also sure nobody else tried rewetting and then toning a print which had been dried face down on a screen.

logan2z · Aug 22, 2022

Bill Burk said:
But I am also sure nobody else tried rewetting and then toning a print which had been dried face down on a screen.

Someone like Bob Carnie might and he dries his fiber prints emulsion side down:

Best method for drying fibre paper?

I suspect this topic has been discussed before, but I couldn't find a proper thread. Question: What are your best/most efficient/easiest methods for drying fibre based photo paper? Reveal your McGyver-in the darkroom-skills here and now. Personally I have boiled it down to two methods that I...

www.photrio.com

I do it because the prints dry significantly flatter that way and are then much easier to completely flatten in a dry mount press.

I haven't seen any signs of the screen pattern transferring to my prints, but you obviously have and I've heard of other cases in which this has happened too. Maybe as you suggested, it depends on the screen material and how tautly it is stretched, which could affect how much contact there is between the screen and the emulsion during the drying process.

Philippe-Georges · Aug 22, 2022

To my experience, FB drys flatter when it is laid upside down on (clean-) nylon screens, the back must dry faster than the emulsion.
That's why a gently wipe the print, treated in a Sistan + extra Agepon bath, when laying on the back on a thick and well absorbing towel, with a microfiber cloth on the emulsion side.
Then, once dry, I put the prints in a warm (but not hot) glazing machine emulsion up to get them thoroughly dry, and once cold, lay them under a stack of 5 heavy marble tiles from 35x45 cm for two days...
So, it takes me between 3 to 4 days...

snusmumriken · Aug 22, 2022

I lay FB prints face-up on screens and wipe off surface water with a car wiper blade. Leave overnight, by which time the emulsion has dried enough for the prints to be turned over without getting screen marks on the image side. Leave overnight again, then stack carefully and place under a heavy sheet of glass (I use safety glass from an old window unit, having ground the edges smooth with a piece of sandstone), with extra books piled on top. The prints become almost dead flat after a few days, but as has already been mentioned you must trim the margins to achieve total flatness. Finally I dry-mount ‘keepers’, but that is not essential.

Getting Fiber Based Paper Flat

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