Getting a rangefinder again... R3A or M3

[guangong]

M2, M3, M4, M5, any of the Leicas made by Leitz. I have 3,4,&5. Bought new when they appeared on market and never have had any regrets. I bought a new Voightlander R2a, o.k., but depends on batteries. I prefer the dependability of all mechanical cameras and prefer the computer in my head to the one in the camera. Leicas and R3a have the same lens mount.
If you prefer the computer be in camera, a Contax G camera may be a consideration and worth a look. So many choices!

 

[Dan Daniel]

I used a 40mm (Summicron) on an M3, thinking that the outer edges would be about a 40 view. It wasn't for me, still extra around all edges. But I am both left eyed and my eyes are somewhat deep set so I have problems with seeing the outer frame lines and edges on most rangefinders. Others seem to find the M3 finder works well with a 40. I moved to a 35mm Summaron with googles and it was great.

I would go for the M2 if I was doing it again. The Bessas are very good and quite usable but nowhere near as nice to handle. Assuming that the price is close. If the R3A is much less, that's a lot of film and gas and coffee.

 

[Charles Escott-New]

Your budget would buy you an M2 and a 50 screw lens with adaptor. The lens could be a Leica, a Canon, a Voightlander or a Soviet. This outfit is fun and gives me extreme pride of ownership, sorry but it is the truth. All the best with your choice,Charles.

 

[Mark Fisher]

I use an M2. If I only used a 50, I would opt for the M3. I have a Konica RF and the M2 and I much prefer the M2 even though it doesn't have a meter. It is simply a mechanical jewel....an incredible pleasure to use.

 

[mshchem]

Brightest 50mm finder made by Leica.

 

[Arklatexian]

Hi all. I'm looking to get a rangefinder again. I used to have a Bessa R3A for a while which was a great camera. I particularly loved the viewfinder even though the 40mm framelines were basically impossible to see. For various reasons I sold it but am now looking to get back to rangefinders. I intend to use the camera for quiet situations and for when I want just something light and small. Lens-wise I intend to use either the Voigtlander 40/1.4 or a Zeiss/Leica 50. No other focal lengths.

So...I could get another R3a but where would the fun be in that! Additionally, given the prices these command noawadys I started looking at the Leica M3.

For those who have used both, beyond autoexposure what am I losing with the M3? How do the finders compare between the two, is the M3 dimmer and is the rangefinder patch easier/trickier to see? Also, given a budget of £1000 for the body, is there anything else I should be thinking of? I suppose any other Leica 0.85x body is a candidate if the price is right?

Have never used an R3a but do own an M3. In your case, I would recommend another Leica "M" camera that I own, the Leica M2. You would be using the 35mm view with a 40mm lens. In my case I probably would not notice the difference. And if you decide to shoot a really great SLR, an Visoflex 2 or 3 added to your M2/M3 and you are in business. No need to change cameras. Just a thought........Regards!

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Brightest 50mm finder made by Leica.

View attachment 215004

Not only bright, it is 1:1. My m3 VF wasn't and framing, focusing with two eyes was not so great.
With SBOOI on Barnacks, both focusing and framing is 1:1. I put SBOOI on M4-2 if I do quick framing and scale focusing with 50mm lens.

 

[Huss]

For a lot less money what about a Canon P or 7, there are still good working 7s with working meters. The 7, rather than frame line has switchable finders for 28 to 90,been so long that I've had one don't recall is if has a 135 frame or not, the patch may not be a good a Leica but very usable, much easier to load. Will take the newer Votilander screw mount lens, the 40 would need an external viewfinder.

I also owned the Canon P for a couple of weeks... If I was on a budget, then it is a very nice camera. But again I sold it because using Leica Ms is so much nicer in every way. What I really disliked about the P (and maybe the 7 is the same) is that it does not have a defined RF focus rectangle, but a vague blob. I bought it to see what it was like. Scratched that itch, sold it.

 

[Huss]

I agree, the gripe I have is the MP is a M6ttl with a crappy rewind knob, and it's only available with. 72x finder. .

MP is/was available with .58, .72 and .85 finders.

 

[film_man]

If you want something light and small for quiet occasions, I wouldn't recommend either the R3a or the M3. The R3a is a little noisy, and the M3 is not light (and could be quieter). IMO, you should be looking at the compact, fixed-lens rangefinders from the 70s.

Both will get the job done alright, though. A Bessa R3a with the new 40/1.2 or 50/1.2 Nokton would be a very nice kit, and so would a Leica M3 with a Zeiss Planar or C Sonnar. I don't envy the person who has to make that decision. Ideally, you would get to hold both cameras in your hands and see which one sparks joy (anybody watching the Marie Kondo show on Netflix?). I get a kick out of both, so that's no help.

If it were up to me, I would choose the Bessa R3a and the 50/1.2 Nokton for the AE and the extra-fast lens. I'm burnt out on scuffed and dinged up Leicas that need repair, so if I had to have one, on that budget I would go for a mint condition Leica M4-2 or M5, depending on your meter preferences. I'd pair a 50mm Planar or 50/2.5 Summarit-M with the M4-2, and a 50/1.2 Nokton with the M5. The Minolta CLE and 40/1.2 Nokton is another interesting combo, and it should still be repairable.

So...I was going through some old notebooks I had looking for some travel notes and there's a page with notes about the R3A...knew it would come in handy to note these things down. What I said was that the RF patch flared easily and that the 40/1.4 was just too small to handle nicely. Thus, for a lens I think I'll get either either of the 40/1.2 or 50/1.2 Voigtlanders. That still leaves the body decision which, according to my notes, should not really be the R3A given that it felt a bit noisy (like you say) and the patch flared a bit too much.

Some interesting thoughts there about the CLE and the M5. I will explore the M5 as there are a couple of things that keep edging me to a Leica:
1. I never had one
2. they can still be repaired very easily

Thanks!

 

[Craig75]

The manual focus dial locks, and it still moved by accident?

That was my experience. Once it was moved out of the AF position the dial was very easy to jog. I had a tvsiii and the dial there worked perfectly but either my G1 dial was slightly faulty or the design itself was faulty. It was certainly moved from the top to the front and redesigned for the G2 so i am assuming other people complained. I think g2 came out pretty quickly after g1 to correct a couple of critical issues with the first version.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

2. they can still be repaired very easily

By whom? Just google more...

 

[Pieter12]

On my G1, the focus dial locks in Auto but moves freely in Manual. The viewfinder has an LCD display to help confirm focus, but only displays distance in auto mode. The distance is set and shown on the focus wheel on the top of the camera--and the manual states it is only approximate at that.

 

[btaylor]

I had a G1. I wanted a Leica, but could not afford one. It isn’t a rangefinder camera really, it’s an autofocus viewfinder camera. Manual controls are awkward. Lenses are phenomenal though. Got an M2, suits me much better. Amazing build quality you can feel.

 

[film_man]

By whom? Just google more...

What do you mean? Who can repair Leicas? Leica does, for starters. Plus all the independent shops that can work on mechanical cameras.

 

[Craig75]

Oh, I see. People wanted to focus manually for more than just a manual override on an as-needed basis as I think the dial was originally intended. Leaving the dial off of Auto for many shots over a longer period of time led to problems with it being moved around unintentionally.

No. You can move it just setting one shot. Put the camera into manual focus mode and then change shutter speed, ael lock, or exposure compensation and you will almost certainly brush your finger against the focus dial - its unavoidable in such a tightly packed set of controls - brush it and there is a good chance of moving it, so easily does it move. Even if you set all other controls first then the focus dial to avoid this, because the focus dial is behind the shutter button, your finger needs to totally clear that dial to get to the shutter or again there is a good chance you will move it. From memory people use a rubber ring around the focus dial to add some resistance to prevent it moving. I think you'd need to have one in your hand to comprehend how much nonsense the focus dial actually is in the G1

 

[Ko.Fe.]

What do you mean? Who can repair Leicas? Leica does, for starters. Plus all the independent shops that can work on mechanical cameras.

Yes, you are looking at huge bill if it will be sent to Leica. Or just at one tech in USA, who started in seventies and still willing to deal with M5.
So, if you are looking for specific to M5 repairs it is not a broad choice. For only mechanical M it is more places where they still have access to Leica parts.
Cheers, Ko.

 

[John Koehrer]

And far more that won't touch either camera.

 

[Huss]

I had two absolutely perfect, mint, looked like new Minolta CLEs. Kept them in dry boxes with no batteries when not in use (like all my gear). Both cameras worked perfectly when I put them away. (you can see where this is going). First one, I pulled out, tested it, sold it. Did not need two I had decided. The other one a few weeks later jammed on me. Shutter would not fire, film would not advance. No-one would touch it apart from a repair man called Dave Easterwood. He eventually fixed it after about 6 months. Lost faith in it, sold it. Then got contacted by the person who bought my other one who had the same failure. He found me because I posted about it. Anyway, put him in touch with Dave.
While I like the camera, pretty much turned me off it. It seems that age and it's electronics are not a good mix.

The M5 can be serviced in the US by DAG, Sherry Krauter, Gus Lazzari or Leica NJ. I'm sure if you dig hard enough (Zacks?) others can too. Is service expensive? Sure at about $300- $500 BUT the camera is now much cheaper than an M6, and IMO far superior. No flaring finder, spot metering, full exposure readout in VF, made of brass (no zinc and plastic), last in the line of the old school Leica construction - adjust to fit.

 

[film_man]

Yes, you are looking at huge bill if it will be sent to Leica. Or just at one tech in USA, who started in seventies and still willing to deal with M5.
So, if you are looking for specific to M5 repairs it is not a broad choice. For only mechanical M it is more places where they still have access to Leica parts.
Cheers, Ko.

Ah ok, I suppose the weirdo meter thing in the M5 is a bit of a specialty.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Ah ok, I suppose the weirdo meter thing in the M5 is a bit of a specialty.

Yes. You have some great independent service in UK. Check if they do.

 

[Huss]

Ah ok, I suppose the weirdo meter thing in the M5 is a bit of a specialty.

I haven't seen it have issues. But... if you are looking to scratch that Leica itch, as much as I think the M5 (along with the M7) is the greatest Leica ever, the M5 does not have that form factor that the other M cameras have.
So in a way, it still does not feel like a "Leica" if that makes sense. I'd get any one of the other M cameras as a start.. The M5 feels very different in hand.
If you happen to be taking a Los Angeles holiday, you could check mine out to see! (they are not for sale!)

 

[guangong]

For build quality, the M5 is far superior to non Leitz made cameras that followed. The first M5s to hit the market had a flaw that was later fixed. Any early model still encountered today has been fixed. Leitz banked on the camera being a huge success, but too many Leicaphiles didn’t like the shape. This was part of the reason for the demise of E. Leitz. Since then, the company and Leica name has bounced around among different owners with different approaches to marketing.
I have found that a servicing of Leicas about every 40 yrs will keep them running.

 

[film_man]

So lucky me, there was a shop locally that had the M3 and a variety of M2 and M4 bodies available. I tried the M3 and the 50 framelines are just too close to the edges, like the 40 were on the R3A. So while the view was gorgeous it was not appropriate, especially as with glasses I couldn't even see the 50 frame lines. So that wouldn't work with a 50 for me, let alone a 40.

On to the M2/4/4-2/4-P bodies that were available, and the 50 frame lines are just right. Plenty of space around them without glasses and just right with my glasses on. I tried it with the Voigtlander 40/1.4 and 35/1.2 (sadly no 40/1.2 in stock but that gave me a good idea of the size and handling) and various 50s. I think I'll go with a 40/1.4, the 1.2 is interesting but judging by the 35/1.2 it would be too big and intrusive in the finder.

So, I am now the proud owner of an M4 and will do a bit more thinking on whether I want a 40/1.4 or maybe a 50 Cron/Summarit/Nokton. Thank you all for the suggestions and opinions!

 

[Huss]

congrats! when looking for a lens also check out the 7Artisans 50 1.1