George Tice - Lodima Press Edition

Sean · Oct 21, 2005

Baxter Bradford said:
Why can't people manage to focus their energy on making positive images?

Frankly, this whole saga of the last few days has minded me to be wary of a once hospitable forum. Now it seems that pledging allegiance one way or another might land oneself in hospital.

With huge global issues currently going on and reeking massive devistation, loss of life and turmoil, it seems rather pathetic that such rage is being vented on a thing so insubstantial as photography.

Please put things into perspecitve, live and let live and frankly stop being so pathetically small minded.

I have no allegiance to anyone other than the APUG community, for whom I have a great desire to get back on track. Excellence for film based photography.

So why is it that those who tend to be amongst what I consider to be the more aggressive posters, choose not to share their own images? Is this a true love of the medium?

Of those that do post, why not channel this motivation into making better images that you do at present?

All in all a frustrating and disappointing week in APUG. The bottom line is that if APUG continues in this trend, I shall not choose to re-subscribe at any price. I think that Sean is doing an excellent job of treading a fine line. It cannot be easy seeing one's vision for a particular avenue of imaging, justified by now having over 8000 intersted parties, being wiped off the map by those who would rather commit their energies to keyboard than camera. It just doesn't sit.

Where are the informed threads of discussion from a few months or weeks ago? I find it harder to find things of interest from an increase in actual site traffic. There is no way I feel that I have outgrown APUG, but all of the seemingly pre-adolescent noise is wearying and detrimental. What pleasure is there in expending leisure time fighting a virtual opinion in cyberspace?

Baxter, if we had a post hall of fame I'd add that post to it. I am sick of it as well and if it continues we'll just have to start singling people out and getting rid of them- do they contribute to apug or do they contribute dramas to apug. I get many messages from people discussing this gang who either start dramas or poke their heads in as soon as a drama begins. It's gotten beyond old, it's a waste of time and energy and serves no purpose to better this community. -end rant

jovo · Oct 21, 2005

"No man is so foolish but he may sometimes give another good counsel, and no man so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master. "

Jay....a very wise and cogent observation! May we adopt it as a guide for listening closely to what's been written.

photomc · Oct 21, 2005

jovo, Baxter and Sean....Amen.

Jorge · Oct 21, 2005

Michael A. Smith said:
I have ceased monitoring the APUG site, but someone alerted me that Mike Whiting called me a crook. And then I read what Sean wrote about libel and found it quite interesting. This has gotten serious and I may well pursue it. Whiting mentioned earlier that this was the "second time" I had cheated him. I had started to respond earlier, but I figured the hell with it as I did not really have the time to go into that, too.

But someone alerted me that he has just out and out called me a crook and I do have to answer. Here is what he is referring to: He had ordered Azo from us. We sent it. He called and objected to the shipping charge. (He is on the West Coast and shipping from here is quite expensive.) The total shipping, handling, and insurance, charge was $38 on a $322.95 sale. I admitted the charge can be considered to be on the high side (although I have often paid a far higher percentage of shipping costs to weight or price with many small items). I then explained, at length, as I tend to do, why the shipping charge was what it was. He ended our conversation with, "I still feel screwed." He was charged exactly what everyone else who orders what he ordered and who lives on the West Coast is charged. Now he claims I "cheated" him and that I am a crook. Nothing you can do with someone who is like that. He really likes the role of victim and does not listen.

Mike Whiting has not been cheated in this instance either. He was offered a full refund for the book, including shipping. So he would be out nothing. No loss of any sort whatsoever. He refused my offer.

If our decision to bind more hardbound copies of the Brett Weston book is met by other subscribers with the same reaction as the one Mike Whiting had, we will NOT do it. We will see what the reaction is.

Michael A. Smith

Not entirely accurate Michael, here is your e mail to Mike W, notice the condescending, arrogant tone and frankly rationalizations about shipping charges that are irrelevant and excuses for you to pocket the money. If a customer pays for priority shipping and you ship ground, you have to refund the difference, you can just pock it and make excuses about it...so here goes.

Mike,

Don't be so tight!

You are not taking into consideration the other UPS charges we are charged for--the weekly fee, which varies depending on how much we ship in a particular week. That fee can be as high as $16. And sometimes that is what is costs us in addition to the actual shipping charge for shipping one 100-sheet box. We lose big time. And sometimes we have to ship priority mail. So, as I explained earlier, we charge priority mail rates and ship whenever possible by UPS ground. Yes, sometimes, but not all the time, we make a few bucks on the shipping. This helps pay for our assistant, who is the one who usually wraps and ships the Azo and also helps us (a little) to cover all of the intangible costs-the literally hundreds of hours I spent lobbying Kodak over the years to keep Azo in production-and the literally hundreds of hours (and thousands of dollars) we are now spending and will spend to get a replacement paper for Azo made.

We have, if we want it, a lifetime supply of Azo. Paula and I could happily give up his whole paper "business." We don't do it as a business. We do it so that photographers such as yourself can have a quality paper--the only really high quality paper out there. As I have said before, if I were going to do this as a business I ought to have my head examined. The discounters-Badger Graphic, B&H, etc. price the paper so far below Kodak's list price that in order to make any sales at all one has to compete price-wise to a great extent. These folks sell film and paper as essentially a loss leader. They want people to come in the door, do one-stop shopping, and buy the high-margin items like cameras. We cannot compete with that.

Keep in mind that if we hadn't done this and if we were not going to continue to do this (have a paper made) silver chloride prints--except for our own prints and those of our assistant would be a thing of the past. What's that worth? To you? If, as it happens we make a few bucks on the shipping, do you begrudge us that?

We're photographers first. We're publishers second. Both are full-time jobs. The Azo "business" steals valuable time form far more important things. But we do it so that others can have this fine paper. I generally work from 5 AM to midnight seven days a week. By not dealing with the paper "business" I could gain at least a half-day a week and sometimes more--and right now, with the discontinuance of the paper, a lot more. Let's say Azo averages a half-day a week. That 26 days. Almost an entire month. If we spent that time trying to sell our photographs we would make far more than we could ever dream of making selling Azo. We make our living selling our photographs--not from Azo, not even from books. We're thrilled if we can break even on our books--not counting our time. In fact, if I counted our time regarding the Azo "business" we're losing so much money it is sickening to contemplate it. If we were to fairly compensate ourselves for the time we have in with Azo the price of the box of paper you bought would need to be close to $400.

I'm 63. how many more years do I have left? I'm a photographer. I want to do my art. Maybe I just ought to say the hell with this paper business.

And if we made a few bucks on the shipping, why do you begrudge us that? Do you think we are rich? We have no health insurance, no savings, no retirement (not that we would ever retire, but retirement funds in concept), no investments. We struggle every goddamned day to make ends meet, do our real work--making photographs--and serve the photography community.

This letter is taking more an hour to write--that's 1/8 of a "normal" work day. I haven't had to write a letter quite like this in a long time (except that last one to you). But I do write other letters--helping people with their printing questions. I don't get paid for that and am generous with my time. Maybe I should get tight-assed and say the hell with it. No paper. No more questions answered. Paula and I will just do our work, thank you.

Depending on the packing material used the paper can weigh anywhere from 13 to 15 pounds. We don't weight each box when we calculate charges. To do so would mean we would have to first walk to the shipping counter, pack the paper, then walk back to the computer, then enter the charges, then walk back to the shipping counter. Instead of just walking to the shipping counter once. We can't get paid enough to do it that way so we have standardized at 15 pounds.

The Azo should be priced higher in the first place. You should figure you got a bargain. I almost forgot to mention one other significant cost--the interest we have to pay on the money we borrow to buy Azo. No camera store sells Grade 3. Why? Because there are high minimum quantities on all sizes. They don't want to have their money hanging out there. They only order when an order is placed with them. We stock the paper--buying, at times, $25,000 to (once) over $50,000 worth of Azo. Do you think we have money like that lying around? It must be borrowed. ALL of it.

I was going to write that after reading all this if you want a lousy $12 credit I will give it to you, but no, the charges are what they are. You were informed of them before you confirmed your order. You could have chosen to cancel your order, but you went ahead. If you ever want silver chloride paper again the shipping charges will be comparable.

It has cost me more than $12 in time to write this. When added to the last letter I had to write to you (which explained, maybe not this fully, but fully enough the reasons for the shipping charges that you agreed to) it is probably about $200 worth of my time. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered explaining anything in the first place. I could have said, "Charges are what they are, take it or leave it." (We'll sell all of the Grade 3 in the world, no problem, it is not as if we need your sale.) But no, I explained carefully and thoughtfully. Any real business would not have taken the time to do that. I did. And I am taking the time again. But no more. This is it. I will never again take the time to explain to anyone else the reason for any of the charges. If they don't like the costs of what we are selling they can go somewhere else. No explanation needed. This is a valuable lesson for me.

I see I repeated some of what I wrote earlier. I did forget the cost of electricity for the freezer this time. After all this, I think the price of Azo Grade 3 should go up. Paula and I will consider raising the price next week.

Sincerely,

Michael A. Smith

Bold are mine to highlight a particularly nice comment...

sanking · Oct 21, 2005

Sean said:
Baxter, if we had a post hall of fame I'd add that post to it. I am sick of it as well and if it continues we'll just have to start singling people out and getting rid of them- do they contribute to apug or do they contribute dramas to apug. I get many messages from people discussing this gang who either start dramas or poke their heads in as soon as a drama begins. It's gotten beyond old, it's a waste of time and energy and serves no purpose to better this community. -end rant

Well said, Sean. This kind of negative energy is a drain to the apug.org community, and I think also to the individual creativity of the members. I hope you can find a way to put a stop to it.

Sandy

c6h6o3 · Oct 21, 2005

Jorge, Jay:

It's time to let it go, gents. Really. He's not even reading it anyway. Just let it go.

Jim

Jorge · Oct 21, 2005

c6h6o3 said:
Jorge, Jay:

It's time to let it go, gents. Really. He's not even reading it anyway. Just let it go.

Jim

Jim, it is not important that he is reading it. What is important is to put on record his bussiness practices and his arrogant attitude towards his customers. I was planning to order the SB books on Tice and Caponigro. I am now sure it is best to pass on that.

David · Oct 21, 2005

This thing has gotten out of hand and onerous. I am leaving APUG alone for a while until this shit storm passes. Those who decry unethical behaviour on the part of others seem to have no problem with insulting, purile behaviour themselves and seem malcontent until they drag every negative thing out and publicly flog it. In doing so they show themselves to be negative and little is more destructive to creativity than negativity - including constant exposure to those who are negative. I choose to appreciate what good has been done (and remember, who here is so damn perfect anyway that they don't do things that are problems) without closing my eyes to difficult issues. The APUG well is being poisoned. That sucks!

c6h6o3 · Oct 21, 2005

Jorge said:
Jim, it is not important that he is reading it. What is important is to put on record his bussiness practices and his arrogant attitude towards his customers. I was planning to order the SB books on Tice and Caponigro. I am now sure it is best to pass on that.

So, what will it take to get you to stop the harangue?

Jorge · Oct 21, 2005

c6h6o3 said:
So, what will it take to get you to stop the harangue?

If you dont like it simply put me in your ignore list and you wont have to read my "harangues".... Ok?

RichSBV · Oct 21, 2005

Please excuse this minor interuption, but I have a serious suggestion. And no, there's no reason for anyone to either listen to me or take what I say seriously...

To the credit of all involved, this thread has not been locked or deleted. I say 'credit' because I am on the side that believes the information is important for people to read and know...

Then, there's the continueing arguing and bickering, and the disruption of people's conversations. That's not good...

So, how about this:

The "I hate mas" group get together and start a new thread, maybe in the Soap Box all about, well anything you want to say about him. But keep it there!

Then, the other people who prostrate themselves on the holy ground that mas floats over, just leave the other group alone and go on your merry way.

Lets face it, there's a group of people here who obvious worship mas. You will not shed light on their retinas no matter what you say. And of course there's the people who only see the devil incarnate in mas and will not allow him his art or anything else...

So, go to your separate corners, have your discussions, but leave the other group alone...

I see no reason why people can not have a decent discussion about any book, even a mas book, here on APUG unmolested. The purpose has been served and the nasty info is here for others to read. That should be enough...

Okay, you can go back to whatever now. Again, sorry for the interuption...

Andy K · Oct 22, 2005

I really don't care either way. Seeing this nonsense posted all over APUG is extremely saddening and is making us all a laughing stock.

It appears this is all over an amount of $12? FFS GET OVER IT! If you feel you got a bad deal, find another supplier, there are enough around. If I feel I get a bad deal in a shop, I don't then go to my club and disrupt all proceedings with my bitching.

Of the two parties involved here, I have a lot more respect for the side that has, for the most part, refrained from plastering their argument all over APUG.

I never heard of Michael A Smith or Lodima Press before all this schoolgirl whining appeared. I have certainly heard of them now. Thanks for the heads up, they look like good books.

doughowk · Oct 22, 2005

I wonder if anybody has produced a study on the psychology/sociology of forums. Did a google search but could not find any. Reading APUG "discusions" like this thread would provide plenty of fodder for such a research. My own tentative analysis follows.

There is the official owner of a forum who tries to direct the forum according to his initial vision. He gathers like-minded individuals who attempt to moderate the forum thereby making it a useful place to exchange ideas. Then there are the "real owners" of the forum who thru number of posts & constant monitoring ensure that the forum is a reflection of their ideas/vision. They exercize real control of the forum thru their postings ensuring that their ideas dominate. They will chase off any member who for various reasons they can not tolerate (eg, the treatment of Steve Simmons & Michael Smith ). Instead of an open exchange of ideas, the forum becomes a dysfunctional place where many avoid visiting.

Unfortunately, APUG has become that dysfunctional place. Maybe I'll miss out on some information not readily available elsewhere; but at least I'll also avoid the bile that dominates these discussions.

Sean · Oct 22, 2005

Doug, I'll be making an announcement soon about how this community will be 'steered'. I can't get into the exact details fully, but if you take your comment "official owner of a forum who tries to direct the forum according to his initial vision.", and multiply that many times over you'll start to get the picture. In other words a small group of highly respected members of this site who without doubt share my exact vision for apug, will soon come together to form an official group. This group will have the ability to make motions to have certain elements removed from this site, discussed, voted off, and end of story. I've had a guts full of this nonsense and it's about to come to a head, so stay tuned..

photomc · Oct 22, 2005

Before anyone else post to this thread, would like to purpose something a bit different...read this(you want to know the rest of the story right?), go load some film, get your camera, turn of the damn computer...(sorry) go out and do some photography.

Can't go out and shoot today? Then go into your darkroom and tackle that negative that you have been meaning to print and haven't done it.

Can't get to a darkroom? Then go to a gallery/museum and look at some wonderful photographs.

Can't do any of those...the turn of the dang computer and help the wife/kids/friends do something fun.

Still not happy with the world, find a brick wall and.....

Well you get the idea...this is a place many of us come to discuss photography. I don't give a rats behind who is being a cheat...figure I'm smart enough to make those descision without an 8 page thread telling me how bad/great someone is. You may like x and I may like y so what. It's time to put an end to this and from Sean post, it looks like the backlash may be a bit unpleasant....I hope everyone is still here when I return tonight...had a good day shooting/processing/doing photography.

If your not, sorry...might even miss your input.....so stop and think, is any of this wailing really doing anything to change this site for the better.

-rant over

Good Light.

lee · Oct 22, 2005

Great,
now I gotta go sit in a car with him for several hours today...oh, Well.

lee\c

Jeremy · Oct 22, 2005

lee said:
Great,
now I gotta go sit in a car with him for several hours today...oh, Well.

lee\c

oh, dear lord, Lee, now there's gatorade dripping down my monitor!

mark · Oct 22, 2005

Sean said:
Doug, I'll be making an announcement soon about how this community will be 'steered'. I can't get into the exact details fully, but if you take your comment "official owner of a forum who tries to direct the forum according to his initial vision.", and multiply that many times over you'll start to get the picture. In other words a small group of highly respected members of this site who without doubt share my exact vision for apug, will soon come together to form an official group. This group will have the ability to make motions to have certain elements removed from this site, discussed, voted off, and end of story. I've had a guts full of this nonsense and it's about to come to a head, so stay tuned..

Good luck to those folks.

Peter De Smidt · Oct 22, 2005

jdef said:
I think you've just defined witch hunt.

Jay

Jay, that's a little over stated. We can either have some enforcement of civility or none. If we have none, we'd get, in effect, Usenet. Since Usenet already exists, there's really no point in trying to duplicate it, even in a fancy package. So we should have some enforcement of civility. There's nothing inherently wrong with that a priori. It all comes down to how this is handled: It can be done well, or it can be done poorly. Given how well this site has been run so far, I'm willing to give Sean and those he has in mind the benefit of the doubt.

Peter

Jorge · Oct 22, 2005

Peter De Smidt said:
Jay, that's a little over stated. We can either have some enforcement of civility or none. If we have none, we'd get, in effect, Usenet. Since Usenet already exists, there's really no point in trying to duplicate it, even in a fancy package. So we should have some enforcement of civility. There's nothing inherently wrong with that a priori. It all comes down to how this is handled: It can be done well, or it can be done poorly. Given how well this site has been run so far, I'm willing to give Sean and those he has in mind the benefit of the doubt.

Peter

This is one side of the coin, the other side of the coin is I dont know that I want to belong to a site where some people are deemed better than others and thus capable of sitting in judgment on the rest of us.

I would respect the owner of this site more if he just came out and told people to their face he thought they were a disruptive influence on the site and he does not wish him/her to participate any more than him hiding behind the veneer of "respectability" of a group of knights who did not consider a member "worthy" of belonging to APUG.

It is a shame that principles and character should take a back seat to "civility" and political correctness. I find the idea of a gaggle of sycophants getting together and discussing members behind their backs distasteful and lacking in back bone, but hey, that is just me.......

Peter De Smidt · Oct 22, 2005

Jorge said:
[snip]

I would respect the owner of this site more if he just came out and told people to their face he thought they were a disruptive influence on the site and he does not wish him/her to participate any more than him hiding behind the veneer of "respectability" of a group of knights who did not consider a member "worthy" of belonging to APUG.

It is a shame that principles and character should take a back seat to "civility" and political correctness. I find the idea of a gaggle of sycophants getting together and discussing members behind their backs distasteful and lacking in back bone, but hey, that is just me.......

If there's any kind of enforcement of behavior, someone has to do it. I fail to see why having a group of people doing it is any worse than having one person do it. It'll be more work, but having more than one person make the decision lessons that chance that official action will result from an idosyncratic interpretation of the post(s) in question.

And why is such a group inherently a "gaggle of sycophants". They might turn out to be so, I suppose, but there's no inherent reason why they have to be. I don't even know who the people in question are.

Either you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Sean and those he picks, or you're not. If you're not, why are you here? If you are, then why not wait and see how things work out before pulling out the ad hominems? You could have easily made your point without resorting to terms like "a gaggle of sycophants." How does insisting that people discuss issues and argue with a modicum of docorum entail a loss of character?

-Peter

David · Oct 22, 2005

I don't see or read any sense of judging who is 'worthy' or who are 'deemed better' than others. This appears to be a red herring inasmuch as behavior, or decency of treating others is perhaps in view more than character judgment. In fact, it appears just the opposite as character judgments have precipitated the current problem. To attack character as a means to fix the obvious lack of civility or decency recently spotlighted would be ludicrous. When members attack others (as opposed to 'what' they do or say) no one wins and in fact we are all diminished Spirited discussions, disagreements, etc. are surely part of the accepted ways of this site. What has recently occured smacks of viscous, ad hominem attacks rather than intelligent, mature discussion of volatile topics. It is less a matter of 'who' says or does 'what' than 'how' it is done. Political correctness be damned but respect for others and deliniating that respect for others from our discussion of their actions, views, or choices is essential.

Jorge · Oct 22, 2005

David said:
I don't see or read any sense of judging who is 'worthy' or who are 'deemed better' than others. This appears to be a red herring inasmuch as behavior, or decency of treating others is perhaps in view more than character judgment. In fact, it appears just the opposite as character judgments have precipitated the current problem. To attack character as a means to fix the obvious lack of civility or decency recently spotlighted would be ludicrous. When members attack others (as opposed to 'what' they do or say) no one wins and in fact we are all diminished Spirited discussions, disagreements, etc. are surely part of the accepted ways of this site. What has recently occured smacks of viscous, ad hominem attacks rather than intelligent, mature discussion of volatile topics. It is less a matter of 'who' says or does 'what' than 'how' it is done. Political correctness be damned but respect for others and deliniating that respect for others from our discussion of their actions, views, or choices is essential.

Oh no? And how do you propose those members who will be able to "make recommendations" be chosen? Isnt this by definition choosing people who are viewed as more worthy than others?

What has recently occured? A person selling books was accused of being dishonest? is this such a crime? or is it a crime because it disagrees with your opinion? I suppose the only "intelligent and mature discussion" is one where people agree with you.

Andy K · Oct 22, 2005

It's Sean's site. It's Sean's decision. We can like it or lump it. Personally I'm all for anything that will stop all these pointless arguments and personal attacks. this is APUG, not photo.net.

jd callow · Oct 22, 2005

Until it transpires Jorge, don't worry about it. If he picks Sean Clones then nothing changes. If he picks a diverse enough group nothing will happen due to a lack of consensus or... new horizon's might be reached.

George Tice - Lodima Press Edition

Sean

Admin

jovo

Membership Council

photomc

Jorge

sanking

c6h6o3

Jorge

David

c6h6o3

Jorge

RichSBV

Andy K

doughowk

Sean

Admin

photomc

lee

Jeremy

mark

Peter De Smidt

Jorge

Peter De Smidt

David

Jorge

Andy K

jd callow

Moderator

George Tice - Lodima Press Edition

Admin

Membership Council

Admin

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency