George Tice - Lodima Press Edition

Seems like all the vogue to discuss these editions in the past few days, so why not the George Tice?

I agree with everyone's sentiments about the Weston and Nixon books. Same holds for the Tice book - the finest reproductions of any of his books so far. I have and love Tice's Paterson and Urban Landscapes, but the new reproductions easily outclass those. Only 16 pics, but $25 very well spent.

I'm now looking forward to the others, especially Robert Adams, Frank Gohlke, Keith Carter.

Anyone subscribe to the whole series? Or is this topic now taboo?

I saw the Nixon and Tice books when I was in PA for a workshop. I'm tempted by the series. I have several Robert Adams books, but I own nothing by Tice, Nixon, Carter or Gohlke.

I saw Paterson in the library and I liked that one too.

Mike Davis

c6h6o3 said:

I've subscribed to the whole of both series. I haven't received my first Brett Weston yet.

I'm confused, though. I though the next one (after Nixon) was to be Carl Chiarenza. I'm really looking forward to that one.

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You are right about the Chiarenza book - although I must say I am not a big fan. I generally liked Evocations, but I think I will pass on the new one. An acquired taste for sure.

I was considering getting the George Tice and Paul Caponigro special editions, but after yesterday's debacle I want to get the soft bound versions but they are not announced at the Lodima site, if the George Tice book is out already do any of you know when it will be up in the web site?

Please let us know, I would also be interested in the George Tice and Paul Caponigro books even in softcover.

c6h6o3 said:

So which am I?

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I'll give you some hints:

"A <fill in the blank> is born every minute."
"A <fill in the blank> and his money are soon parted."

-Mike

Gentlemen, am aware of your feelings about MAS and support your right to feel the way you do, However, hope you will also allow the rest of us to discuss these books without dealing without ‘cute’ or sarcastic comments. You are entitled to your opinions, and hope you will agree that we are also entitled to have an interest in other activities you might not be inclined to participate in.

Don't kid yourself. These guys are going to appear on any thread evenly remotely related to Smith from here on out. Watch.

Mike Lopez said:

Don't kid yourself. These guys are going to appear on any thread evenly remotely related to Smith from here on out. Watch.

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Mike,

I'm afraid that you're right. But you know what, it's their loss. I hope that Mike W never buys another Lodima book. I bought one yesterday just for him. I think that I'll buy another one tomorrow. In the end, he may sell more books for Michael than he ever realizes.

No work tomorrow, a couple of 8x10 holders loaded, intermittent thunderstorms predicted, good clouds, good light. I think its going to be a good day in the olde south.

Mike Davis

Geeez.....ok guys, I know feelings are still a bit raw but lets try to be dispassionate for a second.

I truly do not believe that MAS set out to intentionally screw his subscribers. I do not believe he is a "crook". What I do believe is that MAS suffers from terminal arrogance. He really thought that because it was Michael A. Smith that people were going to roll over and follow him as the shepard of all things photographic.

Do I think he was wrong in what he did? a resounding yes! Do I think Mike had every right to be upset (specially since even MAS is selling his limited editions higher now than what they were before for those books already published!)? Absolutely yes!

I also think it was wrong of the moderators to remove the thread so people could make their own conclusions.

But, having said all this, lets not crucify the lifetime work of one guy for one mistake he made. I believe he has to earn once again the trust of his customers, and I will certainly will not sing up for any subscription. But, in order for him to regain our trust he has to be given a chance to do so.

So, Jay, I am neither a fool or a crook, I just want to get a couple of books with work from two photographers I admire, if that means I have to deal with a guy who is too self centered to see his mistake, so be it. In the end I will get a couple of well printed books that I want.

jdef said:

I'm sure the books are nice, but I'll wait to buy mine from a second party. The only people who do business with crooks are fools, and other crooks. I am neither.

Jay

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I'm about to order some more books from Michael and Paula. Can I get some for you, and how much of a premium will you pay me to prevent you having to tarnish your pride?

I know people think I am a fool, at least I hope so, and I know that someone thinks I am a crook, at least he said so when he saw what I was selling, and for how much, in my last show.

Jdef,

I'll say it again. One person has claimed to feel defrauded the other HC subscriber who has commented here does not feel defrauded. So who are these hundred and who says that there won't be a limit? You've jumped to conclusions.

I keep many things in mind jdef. Among those things are who's photographic opinions and knowledge I accept as fact based on experience and who's I accept as opinion based on less than fact.

Here's something that I wrote to Michael when all of this was starting. I stand by it.

Michael,

I have read virtually every post that you have written here, on LF forum and photo.net. I am sickened by the vitriol of posts like these from Mike W.

I respect the work that you do. And I respect that your opinions are based on experience not something that you heard or read in a book.

There is nothing that I can say to make up for the attacks that Mike W has made tonight. But I can say thank you for your commitment to photography, publishing and teaching. Even if you're not a member of SPE, you teach with every workshop, email, and posting that you make and I for one value that.

Mike Davis

Awww hell, I guess this is going to turn out into another MAS thread....

Mike, I have no beef with you, but what is it going to take for you to recognize what MAS did was wrong? You cannot possibly know how the rest of the subscribers, in addition to those whom MAS asked about the change, feel.

I dont understand this blind devotion and refusal to see the unethical behavior. I dont know how you judge your friends, but I judge mine by knowing that they have my best interest at heart and are not afraid to tell me when I am wrong. By writing the letter you did and prasing him, you are actually telling him it is ok to defraud people just because he is MAS.

Your admiration for MAS is commendable, but do net let it blind you to his faults.

jdef said:

David,

if and when I want a Lodima book, I'll look on the used market, but thanks for the offer.

Jay

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Hey, I will make it look used if you want

Jorge said:

Awww hell, I guess this is going to turn out into another MAS thread....

Mike, I have no beef with you, but what is it going to take for you to recognize what MAS did was wrong? You cannot possibly know how the rest of the subscribers, in addition to those whom MAS asked about the change, feel.

I dont understand this blind devotion and refusal to see the unethical behavior. I dont know how you judge your friends, but I judge mine by knowing that they have my best interest at heart and are not afraid to tell me when I am wrong. By writing the letter you did and prasing him, you are actually telling him it is ok to defraud people just because he is MAS.

Your admiration for MAS is commendable, but do net let it blind you to his faults.

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Jorge,

I agree totally with what you said. To support unethical behavior only keeps the unethical behavior coming. What Michael proposed to do was unethical, juvenile and diminishing to him and whoever accepts that from him.

I would almost guarantee that Michael will not accept a uniltateral 75% reduction in the price of his limited edition books nor should he.

By the same token, the purchasers of the limited editions should have the confidence that the limited edition will be held at the number stated at issue.

I know Michael. He has spent the night in my home. I have respected him until this incident. I won't buy any limited additions of anything from him until I am once again assured that my trust in him and his business ethics is well placed. At this moment I do not have that assurance.

Jorge said:

Awww hell, I guess this is going to turn out into another MAS thread....

Mike, I have no beef with you, but what is it going to take for you to recognize what MAS did was wrong? You cannot possibly know how the rest of the subscribers, in addition to those whom MAS asked about the change, feel.

I dont understand this blind devotion and refusal to see the unethical behavior. I dont know how you judge your friends, but I judge mine by knowing that they have my best interest at heart and are not afraid to tell me when I am wrong. By writing the letter you did and prasing him, you are actually telling him it is ok to defraud people just because he is MAS.

Your admiration for MAS is commendable, but do net let it blind you to his faults.

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Jorge,

I believe that Michael made a business mistake which threatens the existence of the series. With the exception of one individual every subscriber queried has prefered to see the series continue even if the limited edition numbers are raised. That's my take on it. It is a sucky situation. You see it as unethical and others do as well. But, I believe him when he says that this is what they have to do.

Let's think about this a little. How much profit do photo books make? I don't see a lot of people running up offering high quality photo books for sale. So, can we assume that the margins are relatively low to begin with? At least when they're printing their own books, the potential is there to sell some prints from the books. But they're not going to sell any Weston prints from this one. The didn't sell any of Edwards prints either. Kim Weston may make more off of the books than Michael and Paula. I imagine that the big auction houses will make more than Kim and Michael put together.

You're right that I can't know how the unasked subscribers feel, but neither can anyone else. I think that the situation sucks. But I learned a long time ago that whining about a situation doesn't make it better. Work makes it better.

We took a vote about threads earlier today. Even though less than100 people of the 6000 on Apug voted a decision was made to change the rules. That's a 1 in 60 sample. If Michael talked to a dozen subscribers out of a 100 that's a much larger sample. Is it large enough, maybe not. But that's why he's offered people the ability to return the books and cancel the subscriptions.

250 of the hardcovers at $100 each is $25k. My bet is that the $25k US won't even cover the printing costs. That leaves 750 books at, lets say an average of $32 each ($29 for sub, $35 for non sub). That's $24k additional assuming that there are only direct sales. Probably though 200-350 of those books will wind up in book stores that they will be wholesaled to for $12-15. That lowers things further say to $18k. Now out of this $43k, all of the bills will need to be paid, plus enough extra to cover the cost of getting the next edition on the press. Then there are trips to europe for press checks, etc It can't be much profit. My bet is that Michael isn't even paying himself $25 an hour for the work.

At 100 books at $100 that's $10k+ the other $18k that we talked about. I really don't see how they can break even. If they can't break even and pay the credit card bills they cannot produce more books. I could be wrong about the printing costs, but my bet is that I'm on the low side rather than the high side. Good printing is not cheap.

I spent 1990- 1995 in publishing and printing. With #1 paper and 600 lpi quadtones, these are expensive volumes. So these are the things that I base my thoughts on. That's how I can support Michael in this issue. There's basically no money to follow here. It's a thin margin with a 250 copy hardcover edition, it's a losing proposition with an edition of 100 if they are going to print books of the quality of the ones so far.

Mike

Mike,

I appreciate your accounting of the numbers. The point remains that somewhere something didn't happen. Either Michael did not have his numbers nailed down and he was shooting from the hip or his printer didn't live with his contracted price.

That is not the fault of the purchasers.

If you go down to your local automobile dealer and arrive at a price for a car that you want, you are going to be pretty pissed if the car is delivered to you with only two tires. You would have every right to be disgruntled. The purchasers of this limited edition book, even if it is only one purchaser, have the same right to be upset because a contract was unilaterally broken. That makes it unethical and it may make it illegal.

If Michael can not make it work then someone else will have the means and ability to make it work. I can guarantee you that.

Donald:

I just got off the phone with a gentleman who has known MAS for a few decades now and has spent a lot more time with him than a single night. When I explained about the limited edition fiasco and the ensuing tirade on APUG, he wasn't the slightest bit surprised. In fact, even before I finished telling him what MAS had done, he told me he could anticipate the point based on his experience with Michael. He assures me that this is a pattern of behavior, not an isolated incident and that it has been going on for decades. He gave me the name sof 2 famous photographers who will not abide the presence of MAS for this type of stuff. While you may have considered having him over for a night's hospitality to be a treat, MAS was mooching - sorry for putting it bluntly like that. He has done it so many times that he is permanently unwelcome in 3 households that I know of (and yours may be the 4th). I'm sure this board is filled with people anxious to be the 5th, 6th, etc.

In my own personal experience, this is the 2nd time MAS has ripped me off. This was not an isolated incident. I told him the first time that I cannot stand being stolen from. I have hard documentation of this fact. Had he apologized and refunded me my money, nothing more would have been said and I think my reaction to the LE would not have been so strong. This is a pattern of behavior on his part, not an isolated incident. It seems that each new person that comes into contact with him has to learn the hard way and then he just moves on to the next mooch victim.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread so others can get back to discussing how anxious they are to give money to someone who looks at them as one of those things that is born every minute.

I will start another thread in the Lounge that will challenge these MAS cult followers directly and I'm sure it will get them all foamed up.

-Mike

mikewhi said:

Donald:

I just got off the phone with a gentleman who has known MAS for a few decades now and has spent a lot more time with him than a single night. When I explained about the limited edition fiasco and the ensuing tirade on APUG, he wasn't the slightest bit surprised. In fact, even before I finished telling him what MAS had done, he told me he could anticipate the point based on his experience with Michael. He assures me that this is a pattern of behavior, not an isolated incident and that it has been going on for decades. He gave me the name sof 2 famous photographers who will not abide the presence of MAS for this type of stuff. While you may have considered having him over for a night's hospitality to be a treat, MAS was mooching - sorry for putting it bluntly like that. He has done it so many times that he is permanently unwelcome in 3 households that I know of (and yours may be the 4th). I'm sure this board is filled with people anxious to be the 5th, 6th, etc.

In my own personal experience, this is the 2nd time MAS has ripped me off. This was not an isolated incident. I told him the first time that I cannot stand being stolen from. I have hard documentation of this fact. Had he apologized and refunded me my money, nothing more would have been said and I think my reaction to the LE would not have been so strong. This is a pattern of behavior on his part, not an isolated incident. It seems that each new person that comes into contact with him has to learn the hard way and then he just moves on to the next mooch victim.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread so others can get back to discussing how anxious they are to give money to someone who looks at them as one of those things that is born every minute.

I will start another thread in the Lounge that will challenge these MAS cult followers directly and I'm sure it will get them all foamed up.

-Mike

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Mike, I came away feeling exactly the way you described.

Mike, I hope you realize that MANY people get sued for slander on the internet these days and you have totally opened yourself up for an extreme cut and dry case of slander. One of the more pure cases of it I've ever witnessed since I connected to the net.

Donald Miller said:

Mike,

I appreciate your accounting of the numbers. The point remains that somewhere something didn't happen. Either Michael did not have his numbers nailed down and he was shooting from the hip or his printer didn't live with his contracted price.

That is not the fault of the purchasers.

If you go down to your local automobile dealer and arrive at a price for a car that you want, you are going to be pretty pissed if the car is delivered to you with only two tires. You would have every right to be disgruntled. The purchasers of this limited edition book, even if it is only one purchaser, have the same right to be upset because a contract was unilaterally broken. That makes it unethical and it may make it illegal.

If Michael can not make it work then someone else will have the wherewithall to make it work. I can guarantee you that.

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Donald,

Who will make it happen? Who's rushing out to print Trice and Nixon and hell even Brett and Edward Weston? I don't see them. Have you been to Borders or B&N lately. Is that the quality that we have to be left with?

Maybe Michael had his numbers completely wrong. I still don't want to see this project fail. People do have a right to be angry. But would they be more angry if the whole thing ended? He's offered people their money back. What more can he do? Give up on the series? Go out of business? What will that solve?

As for the car analogy, if it was delivered with 2 tires and I was offered my money back, I would walk away if I was not satisfied. That's my point. People can walk away if the changed deal is not to their liking. How is that unethical? If he forced people to abide by a unilaterally changed contract without the option of walking away that would be unethical and illegal. But he's not doing that. He's offering a choice.

I will be happy to discuss this further with anyone who wants to talk about it by PM. I should have simply ignored JDEF, but I didn't and here I am at 2:41am.

Mike Davis

Well Mike, these are all good rationalizations, but they dont excuse the facts.

- He promised a limited edition and took money under that promise to finance the project.

- He has gone back on his promise to make more money, regardless of the reasons. (it is not the subscriber's fault he made a mistake)

- Instead of being apologetic and trying to smooth things out he has taken the position he is MAS and if you dont like it, shove it. (Mike W is a good example, you dont agree with me (MAS), here is your money and dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out)

Regardless of his behavior with this book, tell me something. Why would subscribers believe him on the edition of the following books? What is to say that the Dollar exchange does not get worse and next time he will have to make a "limited" edition of 500?

As I understand it there are 18 books left to print, are the subscribers going to have to put up with the same sob story in the following books? When will it end, if he did it once , what is to stop him from doing it again?

Do you see the problem? Even if we are to accept your rationalizations and accept a clean slate from now on, can you see the loss in credibility he has endured, which was further exacerbated by his responses? This loss in credibility was all of his doing, not only by making the mistake, but by his reaction to the situation.

I am sorry to say this, but if MAS is rationalizing his actions along the same lines you have proposed, then clearly he sees nothing wrong in his actions and I dont feel like rewarding him for them by buying any books. MAS and I are diametrically opposed in what we consider a good photograph, nevertheless I always respected him and gave him his due. He has lost the respect I had for him not because of the mistake he made, but because of the reaction the had to it. He can argue that Mike W was being a jerk, but in the end, Mike W is the customer and it is never good business to tell a customer if he does not like it to shove it, specially in public.

Sean said:

Mike, I hope you realize that MANY people get sued for slander on the internet these days and you have totally opened yourself up for an extreme cut and dry case of slander. One of the more pure cases of it I've ever witnessed since I connected to the net.

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Remember Sean, it is not slander if it is true...... I dont know if it is or not, and I am certainly not a lawyer, but I would imagine that if Mike W can produce 4 or 5 people who have made the same assesment then he has no problems.

Sean said:

Mike, I hope you realize that MANY people get sued for slander on the internet these days and you have totally opened yourself up for an extreme cut and dry case of slander. One of the more pure cases of it I've ever witnessed since I connected to the net.

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Not that it makes much difference, except to an attorney, but the correct term would be libel. Slander would more correctly apply to an uttered (spoken) declaration. Libel would apply to a published (written) declaration.

I don't think that Mike would have a lot of difficulty arriving at a defense against such an action considering what has transpired.

Actually I think that the web may be tricky in the area of libel and slader. Perhaps the great legal minds of APUG can help us with it.

You know, I think that I will buy two Lodima books later today. One for Mike W and one for Jdef. Thanks guys, I'm being motivated by you to buy more excellent photography books. That will make three in three days.

Mike