Genuine or Substitute Borax Identification

[Ian Grant]

Firstcall are selling Bellini Borax at a reasonable price £4.99 for 500g.

I think the UK is just mirroring the EU, it can be sold but technically you need to justify the reason for its use. So a company selling Borax alongside other photochemistry would be aware of why it is being purchased.

Ian

 

[koraks]

I think the UK is just mirroring the EU, it can be sold but technically you need to justify the reason for its use. So a company selling Borax alongside other photochemistry would be aware of why it is being purchased.

One of the shops I sometimes buy stuff has processes in place to collect end user declarations for compounds requiring it (e.g. potassium permanganate). The restriction does not apply to borax, which can be bought without any declaration by private individuals here on mainland EU. So it doesn't seem like UK legislation is mirroring EU policy; it seems to go a fair bit further than that.

 

[titrisol]

Would this be a good time to stock up on Boric acid whilst it is still available to the public in Europe?
Even if you do not use it in your photographic chemistry at the moment, it might be handy to have some on the shelf for that formula you might find in the future.


American Preppers stock up on guns, ammunition, long life foods, batteries and medicines.
Me? It's Pyrogallol, Borax, Boric acid, colour film and paper.

1. WHY?
2. I thought the UK freed itself of the EU

 

[Mal Paso]

Amazon has 20 Mule Teem $12.99/4 pounds. Ebay will ship that same 4 pounds to the UK for $50. Is there VAT on laundry products?

Check Ebay PURE Natural Cleaning Washing Powder ( Fórmula: Na2B4O7.10H2O ) 24 ozOpens in a new window or tab

 

[pentaxuser]

Firstcall are selling Bellini Borax at a reasonable price £4.99 for 500g.


Ian

That's quite a reduction on Nik and Trick's price and more in line with what you might expect a place like Firstcall or other retailers dealing in photography to sell it for Nik and Trick appear to want £19.25 for 200g There's got to be a mistake in the latter price surely?

pentaxuser

 

[John Wiegerink]

Amazon has 20 Mule Teem $12.99/4 pounds. Ebay will ship that same 4 pounds to the UK for $50. Is there VAT on laundry products?

Check Ebay PURE Natural Cleaning Washing Powder ( Fórmula: Na2B4O7.10H2O ) 24 ozOpens in a new window or tab

All I use is 20 Mule team borax, but I really don't use many developers now that call for borax.

 

[BobUK]

Bad news.

The photograph on Firstcall shows a 500g container of Borax, but the caption reads 100g.

Sadly not such a bargain.

 

[pentaxuser]

Bad news.

The photograph on Firstcall shows a 500g container of Borax, but the caption reads 100g.

Sadly not such a bargain.

Still a lot cheaper than Nik and Trick's £19 plus for 200g, assuming that they have got their price and quantity correct

pentaxuser

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

I thought the UK freed itself of the EU

Far too political to answer that question.
Best stick to topic of obtaining borax.

 

[koraks]

Similar effect like borax.

No; we've already been there:

A carbonate/bicarbonate buffer cannot be set to the pH range for which borax is typically used since the entire useful buffer range of carbonate/bicarbonate is above the upper useful limit of the borate/boric acid buffer range.

Bicarbonate by itself of course doesn't have a similar effect as borax since it's a weak acid. pKa = 6.34.

 

[Alan Johnson]

A carbonate/bicarbonate buffer cannot be set to the pH range for which borax is typically used since the entire useful buffer range of carbonate/bicarbonate is above the upper useful limit of the borate/boric acid buffer range.

It can be set in the range down to about pH 9.2 which is adequate for many purposes:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1258214/pdf/biochemj00962-0041.pdf

This is not to say it would be as satisfactory as borax.

 

[koraks]

Yes, indeed @Alan Johnson , I agree. And it's very well possible that a carbonate/bicarbonate buffer acts as a reasonable alternative to a borax buffer in certain applications, but that doesn't make bicarbonate a substitute for borax. I posted this mostly to prevent misunderstandings with people coming across this thread later on, believing they might substitute bicarbonate for borax.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

Does anyone know a borate-free recipe for D76? (Not D23)

 

[BobUK]

lostlabours has an excellent site.
Some excellent information on this particular page.

-- ID-11 D76 Variants --

A big thank you to him for the time and effort he has put in to collect all this information.

Type in lostlabours photography for the full website.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Does anyone know a borate-free recipe for D76? (Not D23)

Adox:

Adox D76 ?!

Never overestimate my chemistry knowledge. Yeah, my chemistry knowledge can be written on a salt packet you get with a plate of chips. The stuff appears to be significantly alkaline, which is what borax is doing in D76. so maybe can replace borax.

www.photrio.com

There was a thread that speculated the replacement might be Trilon-M. AFAIK this is not available to individuals in small quantities.

For homebrew it should be possible to weakly buffer to D-76 level~8.6 using sodium bicarbonate but it may not be as re-useable as the borax version due to pH drift. AFAIK this would involve a new experimentation.

 

[koraks]

lostlabours has an excellent site

He does, but all D76 variants listed contain borate or boric acid.

 

[pentaxuser]

Far too political to answer that question.
Best stick to topic of obtaining borax.

In relation to the question of how leaving the EU affects our position in relation to the sale of Borax it need not be political We need simply and factually explore the facts around its effect on Borax and make sure we do not stray but yes I agree that the latter is the hard part

pentaxuser

 

[titrisol]

As per EU directives Borates were banned from FOOD use somehwere in the early 2010s, not from any other uses/applications.
It is also forbidden for foods in US, many Asian countries and some Southamericans.
However borates are widely used in cleaning, cosmetics, metallurgy, fertilizers, and even pharma
Bellini sells photographic grade Borax in the UK https://ntphotoworks.com/product/photographic-grade-borax-100g/
As per Anchell you can only substitute within the same family and it will be a difficult one
The EU directive is here:

https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/2427/attachments/1/translations/en/renditions/pdf

It list a few substitutes but I dont think those will work for photo
Sesquicarbonate should give you a pH in the high 9s while Borax pH is in the low 9s
I dont know if adding an extra buffering agent might work but at that point it becomes more expensive than Bellinis

 

[koraks]

{Moderator note: people, please refrain from voicing your opinions on the validity of policies. It's OK to state which policies are in effect insofar as they influence e.g. availability of photo-related products. It's not OK to discuss whether you find these policies justified etc.}