General question for Jobo Users utilizing the Lift

[garry611]

I was involved with a photolab many years ago. The owner purchased a full Jobo system with the lift, with the intention of doing 'special' C41 processing with the Jobo, Basically, he was trying to keep the testing out of the main processing tanks. He was a very by the book guy and old school. I remember he immediately disliked the lift on the Jobo. He started a project to do some basic analysis on the lift. The testing went on for quite some time. If I remember correctly, he found the developer temp dropped around 8 degrees depending on volume when poured through the lift and as it entered the tank. I don't remember how long it took to recover to 100 degrees, but it was significant according to him. Obviously for B&W work, temp drop shouldn't be an issue.

He sacrificed a processing tank by drilling a hole in it and and gluing a nipple to the bottom of the tank, attached a tube from the tank to a small pump and tried pumping the developer into the tank. The tube sat in the water tray and was flexible enough to allow the rotation to continue to occur. He claimed only a 1-2 degree drop this way and quick recovery.

I'm thinking of buying a Jobo for mainly c41 film use -- some have lifts and some do not. It seems the lift may not be best addition, and it might make more sense to just pour the solutions in and out of the tanks manually while still using the Jobo for agitation and temp control. I realize the processing time can be increased to compensate for any temp drop from the lift but it seems this adds just another variable.

I welcome any comments from actually users of the Jobo with lift to help me understand if it is a worthwhile addition.

 

[Alan9940]

I have a CPP-2 with lift that I use for processing MF and LF film, but it's only B&W so I've never worried about any temp change from the pouring of chemicals through the lift. I'm surprised, though, to hear of the claimed temp drop because many photographers use a Jobo w/lift for processing C-41 and E-6 with success.

Based on your format identifier, it looks like you're a MF shooter. You may want to look into something like the AGO Processor which provides rotation style development and monitors changes in temp during the process. Not sure the unit is even available, yet, but it might be a workable solution for you.

 

[khh]

The lift makes the whole process a lot smoother and easier, but it's absolutely possible without too. If you do the prerinse that Jobo recommend, the lift should already be warmed up a fair bit before the developer goes in. I've gotten good results.

 

[Pioneer]

I have never used mine commercially but I develop color negative and slide film in it all the time. I pre-warm the tank as recommended by Jobo, and though I have never tried to measure the temp drop, it has never caused a noticeable problem with the development.

 

[Robert Ley]

I had a CPA-2 for many years and used it to process B&W and C-41. I am with khh in that if you prewash the tank with water slightly higher than your final water temp, say 105degrees you will have no problem. I think that your boss might have had a minor case of OCD, but I never experienced any development problems with C-41 and my CPA-2. I also found the lift to be essential and I would not get a JOBO without one.

 

[garry611]

I appreciate all the feedback.

 

[mshchem]

When I use my Jobo CPP3 I always use somewhat oversized tanks. I try to keep solution volumes from 600mL to 1L. The lift plastic mass has to have an effect, how much, who knows??

Consistent procedure is key, especially E6, individual times for the 1st developer need to be tweaked.

Using a processor without a lift works great, magnetic coupling for 1500 and 2500 series tanks.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I had a Jobo CPE and a Jobo CPP2. I sold the first one off. The CPP2's lift are was broken off so I lift the tank or drum up. I prefer to use the lift to raise the tank or drum and pour the chemicals though the top.

 

[brbo]

If developer dropped by 8 degrees the development time would need to almost double to get to near normal densities (there would still be colour shift).

I would be VERY surprised none of the people (except from a guy in the first post) using Jobos with lift would notice that negatives are so out of specs. Besides, we Jobo users have at least once simulated development of film and then measured the temperature of developer/water in the tank after development to estimate the temperature drop, right? Mine wasn't anywhere near 8 degrees (but I don't use a lift). I just start with long enough presoak and 1ºC higher developer temperature.

 

[garry611]

Sorry if I caused confusion, in the original post, he believed the drop of temp was due to the solution going thru the lift and into the tank. The lift obviously not temp controlled and everything in a air conditioned environment. The temp did come back up to proper range during processing but there was a variable delay in reaching final temp. If you do not use the lift, I would believe any temp drop would be none or very small. He also complained about possible contamination since the lift properly has to be flushed well before the next use. For B&W and RA4, I don't see a problem with using the lift, but I did question whether it was worth the effort in finding a processor with lift.

 

[Robert Ley]

Garry, I initially got my CPA-2 without the lift and found that it was a PITA for me to use so I picked up a lift unit and installed it on my JOBO and NEVER looked back. If you prewash you will not notice a drop in temp that will affect the development. I also liked that when you pour the chemicals in the lift it goes into the tank quickly and can be drained quickly and it is easy to catch the chemicals for reuse. I NEVER experienced contamination of chemicals because I used at least two good washes between chemicals. I think your bosses fears were highly unfounded.

 

[mtjade2007]

Presoaking the film with water could cause another problem too. The emulsion of the film could be saturated with water if you presoak it for too long which is essentially equal to dilute the developer especially if you only use a minimum amount of it to develop the film.

 

[brbo]

Presoaking the film with water could cause another problem too. The emulsion of the film could be saturated with water if you presoak it for too long which is essentially equal to dilute the developer especially if you only use a minimum amount of it to develop the film.

Did you verify that assumption by any tests?

I did. Soft of. It was part of my troubleshooting the streaking on some large format C-41 film that I was getting. I thought that maybe streaking was caused by sudden, but not uniform introduction of developer and then sudden, but not uniform introduction of bleach after developer. I tested various tweaks to the standard C-41 process. Pre-soak > then standard C-41, pre-soak > dev > wash > then standard, pre-soak > dev > stop > wash > standard, developed at lower temperatures... I can't find all the negatives anymore to show here, but I found no difference in negatives that were first pre-soaked (about 5 min) and then developed following standard C-41 or pre-soaked > developed > stopped > washed and the bleached and fixed.

I found a difference if I pre-soaked and used water as stop (increase in Dmax with no significant colour shift which is a result of water being a poor stop), significant difference when processed at 32ºC and of course even bigger difference at 30ºC.

Top to bottom:

1. 30deg, 8:00
2. 38deg, 3:15 (standard C-41 (no prewash, dev., bleach, wash, fix))
3. 38deg, 3:15, prewash, wash before bleach
4. 32deg, 6:30, prewash




From memory, I would say that if I had to "imagine" (I didn't have a densitometer at the time) a difference when using prewash it would actually be a very very very slight increase in Dmax, so the opposite to what you assume should happen. But that is totally irrelevant and could be down to variation in my processing. I wish I could find the negatives that didn't display any observable difference so I could examine them with densitometer. But my take on pre-soak is that it has no meaningful effect on densities of the negatives. Temperature on the other hand has a big impact, so prewash is no brainer if it helps you with the temperatures and only a waste of time in worst case.

 

[mtjade2007]

It's not my assumption. It's based on my several process runs that made me believe the presoaking is something to watch out for. I observed that if you process a lot of film (such as several 135/36 or 220 rolls and use a small amount (or minimum amount required) of developer then presoaking could have an impact to the processing result. I for a long while always presoak with tempered water twice. I use a Jobo ATL-2300 which makes presoaking easy. I programed it to presoak 1 minute each. Just to make sure to eliminate the cooling effect of pouring tempered developer into cold drum with cold film in it. Somehow I still found I had to use more developer or I might still get not so well processed result (some degree of color shift, etc). I found I have to use 470ml to process a roll of 220 to be safe.

Then I found a PE's (Photo Engine) post talking about presoaking. He said not to soak more than 30 seconds. He did not explain why but his words were kind of certain to only soak once and less than 30 seconds. I have ever since programmed my ATL to presoak once for only 30 seconds. It did worked better in my observation. Please note that Kodak's standard C-41 process does not show a presoak step.

So I did not do a more scientific test to prove that. I do think presoaking too long and use only small amount of developer is a bad practice. The difference between a short or no presoaking does mean if the film emulsion gets saturated by the water or not.

 

[brbo]

Interesting how two people can get diametrically different results doing the same thing. Joys of Jobo developing, I guess...

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I was involved with a photolab many years ago. The owner purchased a full Jobo system with the lift, with the intention of doing 'special' C41 processing with the Jobo, Basically, he was trying to keep the testing out of the main processing tanks. He was a very by the book guy and old school. I remember he immediately disliked the lift on the Jobo. He started a project to do some basic analysis on the lift. The testing went on for quite some time. If I remember correctly, he found the developer temp dropped around 8 degrees depending on volume when poured through the lift and as it entered the tank. I don't remember how long it took to recover to 100 degrees, but it was significant according to him. Obviously for B&W work, temp drop shouldn't be an issue.

He sacrificed a processing tank by drilling a hole in it and and gluing a nipple to the bottom of the tank, attached a tube from the tank to a small pump and tried pumping the developer into the tank. The tube sat in the water tray and was flexible enough to allow the rotation to continue to occur. He claimed only a 1-2 degree drop this way and quick recovery.

I'm thinking of buying a Jobo for mainly c41 film use -- some have lifts and some do not. It seems the lift may not be best addition, and it might make more sense to just pour the solutions in and out of the tanks manually while still using the Jobo for agitation and temp control. I realize the processing time can be increased to compensate for any temp drop from the lift but it seems this adds just another variable.

I welcome any comments from actually users of the Jobo with lift to help me understand if it is a worthwhile addition.

I also disliked the lift and went to just pouring the solutions in and out, using the processor for temperature control and agitation, which is worth it alone.

 

[Beevo]

I used my CPE without a lift for the first 2-3 years and then added the lift. I never regretted the change. It allowed my to get more accurate times in the chemicals. Figuring out the "rhythm" was the hardest part.

My results over the years were consistent.