GENERAL FORMULA FOR EXPIRED FILM?

[Juan Paller]

I came across some expired TX 400 (1991), and some HP5 (1986). Is there a general formula on how to shoot these rolls (or any other film for that matter), e.g. reduce ISO by X depending on how many decades, etc.?

 

[kb244]

I usually overexpose by a stop or two, since you can recover from a denser negative, but if the emulsion has aged to where it's no longer sensitive enough, then underexposure will yield it pretty useless.

There's no formula I'm aware of since it's entirely dependant on the film and the condition it had been kept in.

This was Verichrome Pan 125 that expired in 1972, I shot it as 125, and developed it as you would normally. It was a foil sealed 120 roll that sat in the basement of the camera store the whole time.

Camera: Mamiya RB67
Lens: Mamiya 90mm f/3.8C
Film: Kodak Verichrome Pan 125

Where as this Tri-X 120 roll also expired in 1970s, stored in similar conditions went into 'super-grain' mode.

Camera: Mamiya RB67
Lens: Mamiya 90mm f/3.8C
Film: Kodak Tri-X (expired sometimes in the 70s)
Developer: Kodak HC-110 Dilution B @ 68F
Scanner: Nikon Super Coolscan 8000 ED

And I have several 135-36 rolls of Kodak TMax P3200 that only expired in 2004, but has aged much worse than the other stuff (apparently P3200 ages badly). Can get a decent result scanned out of it if you shoot it as ISO 400 (develope as 3200), but kind of defeats the point of P3200 especially when it has much more grain than equivalent 400 speed films. Though I'll try Microphen with the other rolls and try for 800 or 1600 to see what I can get (the base density of the negatives due to age makes it harder to get good contrast).

Canon 7 Rangefinder (1961)
Canon 50mm f/1.8 Type 6 (8 bladed aperture with curved edges on the octagon, serenar style optics)
Kodak TMax P3200 (expired in 2004, not refrigerated, kept at room temperature)
Developed in Kodak HC-110 Dilution B, 68F 10.5 minutes, Agitated once every minute (a 'tap' every 30 seconds in between)
Scanned on a Canon FS4000 dedicated 35mm film scanner.

Where as this UltraTec stuff (which I have a bulk roll of) expired sometimes in the 90s, and yet still yields a very nice image (I need to rate it around ISO 3, and looking at other developer combinations to see what I get).

But the bulk roll of Plus-X I have that expired in the late 80s seems to barely yield a latent image.

 

[Rudeofus]

If you have just a roll or two of each film, then it's the wise thing to just cut your losses, throw out these rolls* and move on. I have shot expired C-41 film extensively, and in hindsight I'd say it's just not worth it. Image quality is noticeably worse than with new film, even if you overexpose and use modified developer, and I've had quite a few shots where I thought "bummer I shouldn't have used old film for this pic". Note, that film cost is only a fraction of overall cost per pic, and more careful consideration before shutter release saves a lot more than free film.

If you have a massive stash of one or two types of film, then experimentation may be worth it. Shoot a typical motive with consecutive exposures 'correct', '1 stop overexposed', '2 stops overexposed', '3 stops overexposed', and develop strips containing all 4 exposures with your typical goto developer, to which you add increasing amounts of Potassium Bromide (start with 1 g/l and use 1 g/l increments). The optimal exposure and developer combination would be the one giving shadow detail to the extent you want and just slight fogging (Dmin increase over new film of same type below 0.3). There's a good chance, that not just speed, but also contrast went down over time, so be prepared to extend developer time.

*: "throw out film roll" does not mean "throw into trash bin". Even long expired film is still usable for clip tests for testing fixer speed, for testing and seasoning of developer, or for practicing spooling film onto the film spindles of your dev tanks.

 

[kb244]

If you have just a roll or two of each film, then it's the wise thing to just cut your losses, throw out these rolls* and move on. I have shot expired C-41 film extensively, and in hindsight I'd say it's just not worth it. Image quality is noticeably worse than with new film, even if you overexpose and use modified developer, and I've had quite a few shots where I thought "bummer I shouldn't have used old film for this pic". Note, that film cost is only a fraction of overall cost per pic, and more careful consideration before shutter release saves a lot more than free film.

If you have a massive stash of one or two types of film, then experimentation may be worth it. Shoot a typical motive with consecutive exposures 'correct', '1 stop overexposed', '2 stops overexposed', '3 stops overexposed', and develop strips containing all 4 exposures with your typical goto developer, to which you add increasing amounts of Potassium Bromide (start with 1 g/l and use 1 g/l increments). The optimal exposure and developer combination would be the one giving shadow detail to the extent you want and just slight fogging (Dmin increase over new film of same type below 0.3). There's a good chance, that not just speed, but also contrast went down over time, so be prepared to extend developer time.

*: "throw out film roll" does not mean "throw into trash bin". Even long expired film is still usable for clip tests for testing fixer speed, for testing and seasoning of developer, or for practicing spooling film onto the film spindles of your dev tanks.

What he said. In my case I have access to nearly 30+ rolls of the Expired P3200 rolls that were stored together, and after 3 rolls, the characteristics are pretty much the same in regards to how they aged (slightly lighter or darker film base, but otherwise nearly the same in how they've aged). Which will allow me to experiment over the cost of say 3 or 5 rolls before I get a more solid plan down as to how I want to use it. Such as doing a quick test in a camera (Since I know it'll yield an image for me to evaluate) among other things. Or if I find it best for just scanning, or if I end up with a development combination that makes them viable for wet printing.

Not something I would consider reliant if it's something important to be shooting. But rather fun with the knowledge that it *might* not come out correctly. When I was younger (and we're only talking maybe 10-12 years ago), I went thru nearly *everything* I found in the basement of that camera store, it was never going to be used, and at best it's packaging might show up as some kind of pseudo-museum. And usually whatever I found there would be like 6 or more rolls of it, a lot of it as 120s. Also at the time I had maybe 100+ years of combined experience from my older co-workers at my beck and call mentoring me.

It seems easier to deal with when a 100' bulk roll is involved, cuz then you can just do a short snip test. Either to develop it to see how edge code looks, or spool up a 12 count roll, and give it a whirl with bracketing.

I tend to prefer HC-110 for a developer because the concentrate seems to last darn near forever. But in some cases other formulations may be required to tame a specific type of aging.

 

[removed account4]

hello juan

the best thing to do with expired film, is set your bar low and be happy with results you get !
i have been shooting expired film this way for more than a decade. some of the film has been really old, others sortof old
others just a few years out of date. none of it has been stored in a freezer or a refrigerator, just a cool "basement/root cellar" type environment
or even a ziplock bag in in a climate controlled room that never really goes above 80ºF in the summer, or below maybe 68ºF in the winter months.
while you have been given great advice by rudeofus about a clear methodology for processing it to find the best exposure and developer time and concentration of KBr,
my methodology is a bit different. i don't add extra kBr, and i just over expose by sometimes 1 stop / 10 years, on top of my already over exposure of 1 stop over box speed,
so for example iso 400, i would typically expose it at 200, but if it is 10-20 years old it get 1 stop mroe light at iso 100 ... i said sometimes because i often times give it an extra stop or 2 of light
just for fun ... my favorite way to process this film is either with DEKTOL or ANSCO 130 1:5 for about 5-6 mins ( ansco @ 70-72ºF, dektol @ 68ºF ) a short and strong development .. there is KBr in both those developers ..
i also work with caffenol C, i roast my own beans but you can just use store bought instant coffee, the cheaper the better ... teaspoon recipe works great, but i tend to make it a little stronger out of habit seeing
i don't usually measure my ingredients i also add a small pour of whatever print developer i have on hand ( used to be 130, now its dektol ) .. about 15-20cc/L is ok but if you want to add a little more have fun ..
there are 3 ways i use the caffenol with expired film, the first is like stand developing .. i put the film in a tank add the caffenol c tap the tank to get the bubbles off ( i pre-wet too ) and leave the film for about 30 mins
at the end i might agitate constantly for 30 seconds or a min but i usually don't. negatives come out good ...
2nd way is agitate normally for about 8-10 mins, 1 full min, then 10 seconds /min ... negatives look like d76 negatives, 3rd way, the way i tend to process film these days is
have 1 container of the dilute dektol ( or ansco ) and on3 container of caffenol spiked with developer ... first goes in the dektol for 1/2 the time so if it is 1:8 it is in there for 4 mins .. agitate normally
1 full min, then 10 seconds / 1 min then pour it out, and add the caffenol and agitate it continuously for the remaining 4 mins ... it gives nice film too ...
my methods aren't really for everyone, and my " looks great " might be your "yikes" but it works for me ( and has for years )
the beauty of expired film is it is usually free or really cheap so you might as well have a good time with it, that's the way i look at it at least.

YMMV

good luck !

john

 

[Juan Paller]

Thanks, everyone for the suggestions. This group rocks!!

 

[David Lyga]

Dealing with age-fogged film is always a challenge due to difficulty in getting sufficient contrast and keeping film speed at a manageable level. However, I have found that when film is really old (decades) you are best advised doing a few clip tests so that whole rolls are not wasted in your search for salvation here.

For example, say a fast B&W film is twenty years old and was stored at room temp. I would surmise that that film would have lost about three stops.Thus, that 'Tri-X' now has a speed of about EI 50. Shoot a couple of frames at that speed. (NB: slow films do not have nearly the problem with age-fog that fast films have.) Then, to develop....

The following formula is my 'restrainer': 1 gram benzotriazole + 10 grams sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in water to make 250 mL of restrainer (which keeps indefinitely and does not have to be kept air-tight). This restrainer is very potent and, depending upon how much your developer is diluted, you will have to find a suitable quantity to add to your developer working solution and a time and temp to develop the film. I have found that the addition of the baking soda gives better reduction of fog. (Feel free to add this restrainer to your paper developer as well.) As a start, I would try adding about 25 mL to a standard 35mm tank (250 mL) of developer and try developing for 50% longer. If the base fog has adequately subsided, but the development time is not sufficient, try adding half as much restrainer for the same development time. If the fog is still too high and the development time gives too much contrast, add twice as much restrainer. To counter the slowing effect of the restrainer, feel free to add sodium carbonate.

Feel free to raise or lower that film speed. I have Kodak 2484 film that is really ancient and gives a fog level that almost precludes even seeing an image. But, when I rate the film at EI 8 (from the manufacturer's intial 250 ISO) and add 50 mL of restrainer to the 250 mL working solution developer (and also add a considerable amount of carbonate to boost the developer power), I get entirely adequate negatives that print well. This is going to take a lot of trials to get what you seek.

These initially laborious trials will give you adequate information to proceed with confidence and teach you how to deal with future films. - David Lyga

 

[Juan Paller]

hello juan

the best thing to do with expired film, is set your bar low and be happy with results you get !
i have been shooting expired film this way for more than a decade. some of the film has been really old, others sortof old
others just a few years out of date. none of it has been stored in a freezer or a refrigerator, just a cool "basement/root cellar" type environment
or even a ziplock bag in in a climate controlled room that never really goes above 80ºF in the summer, or below maybe 68ºF in the winter months.
while you have been given great advice by rudeofus about a clear methodology for processing it to find the best exposure and developer time and concentration of KBr,
my methodology is a bit different. i don't add extra kBr, and i just over expose by sometimes 1 stop / 10 years, on top of my already over exposure of 1 stop over box speed,
so for example iso 400, i would typically expose it at 200, but if it is 10-20 years old it get 1 stop mroe light at iso 100 ... i said sometimes because i often times give it an extra stop or 2 of light
just for fun ... my favorite way to process this film is either with DEKTOL or ANSCO 130 1:5 for about 5-6 mins ( ansco @ 70-72ºF, dektol @ 68ºF ) a short and strong development .. there is KBr in both those developers ..
i also work with caffenol C, i roast my own beans but you can just use store bought instant coffee, the cheaper the better ... teaspoon recipe works great, but i tend to make it a little stronger out of habit seeing
i don't usually measure my ingredients i also add a small pour of whatever print developer i have on hand ( used to be 130, now its dektol ) .. about 15-20cc/L is ok but if you want to add a little more have fun ..
there are 3 ways i use the caffenol with expired film, the first is like stand developing .. i put the film in a tank add the caffenol c tap the tank to get the bubbles off ( i pre-wet too ) and leave the film for about 30 mins
at the end i might agitate constantly for 30 seconds or a min but i usually don't. negatives come out good ...
2nd way is agitate normally for about 8-10 mins, 1 full min, then 10 seconds /min ... negatives look like d76 negatives, 3rd way, the way i tend to process film these days is
have 1 container of the dilute dektol ( or ansco ) and on3 container of caffenol spiked with developer ... first goes in the dektol for 1/2 the time so if it is 1:8 it is in there for 4 mins .. agitate normally
1 full min, then 10 seconds / 1 min then pour it out, and add the caffenol and agitate it continuously for the remaining 4 mins ... it gives nice film too ...
my methods aren't really for everyone, and my " looks great " might be your "yikes" but it works for me ( and has for years )
the beauty of expired film is it is usually free or really cheap so you might as well have a good time with it, that's the way i look at it at least.

YMMV

good luck !

john

Dealing with age-fogged film is always a challenge due to difficulty in getting sufficient contrast and keeping film speed at a manageable level. However, I have found that when film is really old (decades) you are best advised doing a few clip tests so that whole rolls are not wasted in your search for salvation here.

For example, say a fast B&W film is twenty years old and was stored at room temp. I would surmise that that film would have lost about three stops.Thus, that 'Tri-X' now has a speed of about EI 50. Shoot a couple of frames at that speed. (NB: slow films do not have nearly the problem with age-fog that fast films have.) Then, to develop....

The following formula is my 'restrainer': 1 gram benzotriazole + 10 grams sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in water to make 250 mL of restrainer (which keeps indefinitely and does not have to be kept air-tight). This restrainer is very potent and, depending upon how much your developer is diluted, you will have to find a suitable quantity to add to your developer working solution and a time and temp to develop the film. I have found that the addition of the baking soda gives better reduction of fog. (Feel free to add this restrainer to your paper developer as well.) As a start, I would try adding about 25 mL to a standard 35mm tank (250 mL) of developer and try developing for 50% longer. If the base fog has adequately subsided, but the development time is not sufficient, try adding half as much restrainer for the same development time. If the fog is still too high and the development time gives too much contrast, add twice as much restrainer.

Feel free to raise or lower that film speed. I have Kodak 2484 film that is really ancient and gives a fog level that almost precludes even seeing an image. But, when I rate the film at EI 8 (from the manufacturer's intial 250 ISO) and add 50 mL of restrainer to the 250 mL working solution developer (and also add a considerable amount of carbonate to boost the developer power), I get entirely adequate negatives that print well. This is going to take a lot of trials to get what you seek.

These initially laborious trials will give you adequate information to proceed with confidence and teach you how to deal with future films. - David Lyga

Stellar feedback, David. It's great to receive detailed pointers from all the members. Cheers.

 

[David Lyga]

A lot of sweat and swearing went into those hard-won bits of wisdom, I assure you. - David Lyga

 

[Larry the sailor]

I'm gonna take a shot and resurrect this thread..

Similar situation sort of-
Digging through a box of junk I found an exposed roll of Tmax-100. It has to be about 22 years since I shot the roll, stored in the house/room temp
I plan on developing it probably this evening.
Developers I have available are D76, Microphen, Ilfosol3 and TD3 for developer choice.
I have Potassium Bromide available for a restrainer.
Just the one roll so not much opportunity to experiment, just curious to see what I shot in 1995 that never made it to the darkroom I had then.

 

[Pentode]

I just went through the same thing; I found two exposed rolls of Kodak HIE and a roll of Tech Pan, all from around 1994.

I didn't do anything especially fancy with it. I used Xtol, because it's what I had available and all I did was add 10% to the times I found on the MDC.

The two rolls of HIE came out surprisingly well. Some fog, but not too bad, and the images were completely intact and printable.

The Tech Pan, sadly, came out way underdeveloped. The negs are scannable, but I wouldn't even try to wet print them.

Thus is the roll of the dice when dealing with old, questionably stored film.

I could have been a lot more scientific about the whole exercise, but it wouldn't have guaranteed better results.

 

[Wallendo]

I have shot Panatomic X at box speed with good results, old Tri-X overexposed two stops (shot at 100) with decent results. I am finishing up an expired roll of Tech Pan which seems to be hit-or-miss no matter what I try. I have shot expired Arista Legacy Pro 100 (a Fuji product), that behaves as if brand new.
My experiences with old color film have not been particularly positive and I generally avoid it. I do have a few rolls I am currently shooting for fun, as I have bought my first C-41 kit and will use them as my test rolls. Even then I am somewhat apprehensive, as I might miss out on a once-in-a-lifetime shot with my camera loaded with bad film.

In my experience, I can buy new film from Ilford, Kentmere, Foma/Arista, and Ultrafine Xtreme that is fresh and of known quality cheaper than I can find expired film online. Most of the expired film I have shot was film inside of a set of bulk loaders I bought on eBay.

There is a rule of thumb about adding a stop for each 10 years of expiration, but, there is so much variability between storage of individual rolls, that it is not really a useful rule.

In the case of the OP, I would shoot both the Tri-X and HP5 at 50 and 100 (taking each shot at each setting).

 

[tedr1]

Yes there is a general formula for expired film, throw it away. Photography is difficult enough already without introducing unnecessary obstacles like unquantified fog, contrast and speed due to expired film. This is a recipe for disappointment, the results will be unpredictable and make the process of image making frustrating instead of a pleasure. If you can't afford a box of fresh film and the developer to go with it then photography is not the right hobby for you, find something else.

 

[faberryman]

I came across some expired TX 400 (1991), and some HP5 (1986). Is there a general formula on how to shoot these rolls (or any other film for that matter), e.g. reduce ISO by X depending on how many decades, etc.?

Why do people shoot expired film (other than film which has been refrigerated). Time is your most valuable commodity, and film is cheap. Why risk that once in a lifetime shot (or even that shot of your dear Aunt Betty) with expired film? I don't understand the mindset.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Why do people shoot expired film (other than film which has been refrigerated). Time is your most valuable commodity, and film is cheap. Why risk that once in a lifetime shot (or even that shot of your dear Aunt Betty) with expired film? I don't understand the mindset.

+1000

And NO there is no general formula for predicting how a particular film will react. It all depends on the film type and the film's history.

 

[GregW]

Because people enjoy the surprise, unexpected results vs those of a calculated pre visualized approach. Neither is better they're just different approaches to expressing oneself. One of my favorite images is a 1:1 shot of honey suckle flowers with some ancient Ektapan that had sat in a basement and grown some stuff on it. Mold? btw i printed it on expired paper as well.

 

[MattKing]

Relying on unfamiliar, long expired film is both time consuming and unwise.
Experimenting with long expired film can be fun and interesting.
Discovering a quantity of long expired and poorly performing film is a disappointment, but discovering a quantity of long expired and properly performing film feels a little bit like winning a small lottery.
See below for an example of 65+ year old film, shot in an 80+ year old camera in 2016 (with a whole bunch of extra exposure compared to what would be normal for its original ASA). You can read more in the following thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Cholentpot]

Why do people shoot expired film (other than film which has been refrigerated). Time is your most valuable commodity, and film is cheap. Why risk that once in a lifetime shot (or even that shot of your dear Aunt Betty) with expired film? I don't understand the mindset.

Because if I wanted consistent, sharp, clean photos I would shoot digital all the time every time. No dust, hair, scratches. No messing with rolls or loading or being forced to shoot at one speed for a whole roll.

I want character to my photos, I want film that I can futz around with and not worry that I blew .50 on a shot of my great aunts cat. It's also cheap and sometimes free. If not for the 50+ free rolls of expired B&W that a shop gave me I would have nothing to do with film and still be shooting on my convenient DSLR and getting solid predictable if not boring results.

Now because of those free rolls I can run the gamut of B&W film. Same goes for the mountain of cheap expired C-41 that I learned on.

For some reason the film photography community has issues grasping this idea of photography for 'Fun.' If you're a pro using expired film you're a moron. If you're a hobbyist who looks down their nose at someone else's twist, you too can be a moron.

I take the pictures of Great Aunt Betty with my phone.

 

[tedr1]

all right then.......

Version for beginners: never use expired film, it is too unpredictable and the inconsistent results will frustrate attempts at learning.

Version for adepts: go ahead and experiment

Version for pros: no version for pros, pros know what to do

 

[kb244]

all right then.......

Version for beginners: never use expired film, it is too unpredictable and the inconsistent results will frustrate attempts at learning.

Version for adepts: go ahead and experiment

Version for pros: no version for pros, pros know what to do

Pro shoot expired film on their own time for fun... never for clients.

 

[palewin]

The rule of thumb I have heard and used is one stop per decade as a starting point. But you have to test, because storage conditions and film all make a difference.

 

[keenmaster486]

Yeah, I've shot expired film at box speed and had it come out just fine.

But never VERY expired. Ten - twenty years at most.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Because people enjoy the surprise, unexpected results vs those of a calculated pre visualized approach. Neither is better they're just different approaches to expressing oneself. One of my favorite images is a 1:1 shot of honey suckle flowers with some ancient Ektapan that had sat in a basement and grown some stuff on it. Mold? btw i printed it on expired paper as well.

Are they then photographers or gamblers?

 

[Cholentpot]

Are they then photographers or gamblers?

I'm not a photographer. I'm a hobbyist who happens to shoot film with cameras.

Have you never used something in a way it was not meant to be used just to see what happens? Have you ever put the wrong film in the wrong camera just for giggles? Maybe shot some paper negatives or turned a filter into a pinhole. Double exposures are a gamble each time I try. Hauling out an old unused camera is also a gamble. Every time I try to load onto stainless reels I fail but it doesn't stop me from trying again.

If you want to go the 'Art' angle then we can say we're in it for the art. "Artist uses film older than his Granddad" Or "The raw funk or old film"

Anyhoo, my favorite film is always going to be expired for evermore because it hasn't been made for a few years. Still develops and prints well.

Do you have any expired film you'd like to send me? I still have a little room in my fridge...

 

[keenmaster486]

Are they then photographers or gamblers?

Both

And no, send your expired film to me! Hahaha! actually no I have too much already Cholentpot you can have it