GENERAL FORMULA FOR EXPIRED FILM?

LAG · Mar 14, 2017

Juan Paller said:
Is there a general formula...?

Of course! ... Of(x) / course2=NOT(n)!

David Lyga said:
... you are best advised doing a few clip tests...

This!

tedr1 said:
Photography is difficult enough already

You seem to have (at least) one poorly developed formula, IMHO of course

faberryman said:
Why do people shoot expired film (other than film which has been refrigerated)

"Better a fallen rocket than never a burst of light"

faberryman said:
Time is your most valuable commodity, and film is cheap. Why risk that once in a lifetime shot (or even that shot of your dear Aunt Betty) with expired film? I don't understand the mindset.

Have you never lost a shot with fresh film? Maybe we should not blame the film. On the other hand, generally speaking, expired film is cheaper.

Best

GregW · Mar 14, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Are they then photographers or gamblers?

Are these things mutually exclusive? I would say they are integral. To bleed the risk from photography I think drains the life out of it, it becomes mortifying. Stale.

JPJackson · Mar 14, 2017

faberryman said:
Why do people shoot expired film (other than film which has been refrigerated). Time is your most valuable commodity, and film is cheap. Why risk that once in a lifetime shot (or even that shot of your dear Aunt Betty) with expired film? I don't understand the mindset.

In my case it is the only film available in the format I'm working with until the Ilford special order comes in the fall. A couple of film/Dev tests have let me know what is to be expected and the negs, so far are very printable. The Efke 100 has an average EFS of 20 but knowing this allows me to make something to work with.
I do have some fresh Adox coming that will have to be cut in half to use.

Best,
J

Agulliver · Mar 14, 2017

With B&W film, expiry dates can be extended far more than colour films...and in all cases remember that the expiry date is just the date beyond which the manufacturer will not guarantee great, consistent results.

The *only* film I have had no luck with in this sense is TMAX P3200. It doesn't keep well at all. Every other film from Pan F up to Delta 3200 and everything inbetween from various manufacturers will work to some extent. I've just finished a 100 foot roll of Tri-X which expired in the late 90s and it works just like fresh Tri-x. I have a 20+ year old 200 foot roll of HP5+ motion picture film that has some base fogging but it works perfectly well if exposed at 200 or 320ISO.

I would say that over exposing (compared to box speed) one stop is generally safe up to 20 years expired B&W film...maybe a stop and a half or two for film over 30 years old. A neg that is too dense is probably easier to print or scan than one way too thin. The faster the film, the more it will degrade or lose sensitivity so ISO 400 and slower films are most likely to survive well...ISO 100 practically doesn't deteriorate over 20 years unless it's been exposed to heat or humidity...which is possible if it's languished in a cupboard in Italy or Texas for example.

Don't necessarily expect two rolls to come out the same unless you're bulk loading from a long roll. Don't shoot anything super critical on expired film if it's more than a couple of years out of date. Do remember that colour film deteriorates quicker, and the colours can shift even 3 years after expiry....and with E6 more than a year or two out of date you can forget a realistic image.

I have loads of expired film...it's sometimes just good for testing a new or repaired camera, and because it has cost me nothing or very little it's good for "film wasting"....just shooting for the sake of it. I am an amateur anyway but I use fresh film for anything remotely important to me and the expired, even if I believe it's going to perform well, for non-critical photos....photographing squirrels in the wood behind my house, or taking shots in London with a lo-fi camera for example.

So...there is no formula but my advice would be under expose by 1/2 stop or 1 stop...develop as per normal...and enjoy.

Cholentpot · Mar 14, 2017

GregW said:
Are these things mutually exclusive? I would say they are integral. To bleed the risk from photography I think drains the life out of it, it becomes mortifying. Stale.

I like this, sums up why I shoot film. Fresh or otherwise.

Digital to me has far fewer risks. If I were shooting Pro there would be no way I would shoot primarily film. Too much risk.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 14, 2017

GregW said:
Are these things mutually exclusive? I would say they are integral. To bleed the risk from photography I think drains the life out of it, it becomes mortifying. Stale.

I wish statements would not be taken out of context. I was referring to the risk of using old film and perhaps missing a good shot. Taking photographs is the purpose of photography. To do this we want control over all the variables involved. There was no aspect of some Eastern philosophy in my statement.

Cholentpot · Mar 14, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
I wish statements would not take things out of context. I was referring to the risk of using old film and perhaps missing a good shot. Taking photographs is the purpose of photography. To do this we want control over all the variables involved. There was no aspect of some Eastern philosophy in my statement.

Shoot digital in full auto mode and give memory card to shop to print. With a modern DSLR and autofocus you will get 99.9% of what you see through the viewfinder. If what you say about photography being about photographs only.

faberryman · Mar 14, 2017

JPJackson said:
In my case it is the only film available in the format I'm working with until the Ilford special order comes in the fall. A couple of film/Dev tests have let me know what is to be expected and the negs, so far are very printable. The Efke 100 has an average EFS of 20 but knowing this allows me to make something to work with. I do have some fresh Adox coming that will have to be cut in half to use.

What size are you shooting?

GregW · Mar 14, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
I wish statements would not take things out of context. I was referring to the risk of using old film and perhaps missing a good shot. Taking photographs is the purpose of photography. To do this we want control over all the variables involved. There was no aspect of some Eastern philosophy in my statement.

Not sure what your Eastern Philosophy tangent is about? Zen? Maybe? I think more akin to W. Burrough's Cut-Up method. Anyway, You have your rules and I have mine. Why you do photography is no doubt vastly different from me. I make no judgement over which is better. Personally I don't want control over all the variables. To each his own.

removed account4 · Mar 14, 2017

faberryman said:
Why do people shoot expired film (other than film which has been refrigerated). Time is your most valuable commodity, and film is cheap. Why risk that once in a lifetime shot (or even that shot of your dear Aunt Betty) with expired film? I don't understand the mindset.

cause it is fun ?
there really isn't much to understand .. nothing is risked if you are familiar with your materials.
maybe film is cheap for some people but ...
last i checked tmy2 was something like $2.00/sheet for 4x5 film and $5/roll of 120 or 35mm film
doesn't seem cheap to me ! personally i think the whole freeze or refrigerate your film is a scam
most of the film i have exposed since 1970 has not been refrigerated and i have only had a problem once.

kb244 said:
Pro shoot expired film on their own time for fun... never for clients.

i have and i do, and have never gotten a complaint

YMMV

Craig75 · Mar 14, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
I wish statements would not be taken out of context. I was referring to the risk of using old film and perhaps missing a good shot. Taking photographs is the purpose of photography. To do this we want control over all the variables involved. There was no aspect of some Eastern philosophy in my statement.

You want total control. I dont want total control all the time. Sometimes I'm happy to let the film guide me as to what's going to happen in the darkroom. Plus I enjoy a low contrast high grain photo on expired film - it conveys a mood i can't get with new stock.

I've missed enough good shots with fresh film and the best gear (i can afford) that i'm immune to the perils now of missing a shot because the film is beyond redemption. A quick test roll running down the stops should be enough to say whats going to happen anyway.

LAG · Mar 15, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
I was referring to the risk of using old film and perhaps missing a good shot ...

What kind of control do you use with all the variables involved to ensure not to miss a good shot with fresh film?

Gerald C Koch said:
... To do this we want control ...

That's the reason - "recommentioned"(*) before - for using clip tests with expired film.

erratum: (*) recommended + mentioned

Best

JPJackson · Mar 15, 2017

faberryman said:
What size are you shooting?

7x17
The Adox 14x17 came yesterday so I'm going cut some in half today.

Best,
J

JPJackson · Mar 15, 2017

YMMV[/QUOTE]

jnanian said:
cause it is fun ?
there really isn't much to understand .. nothing is risked if you are familiar with your materials.
maybe film is cheap for some people but ...
last i checked tmy2 was something like $2.00/sheet for 4x5 film and $5/roll of 120 or 35mm film
doesn't seem cheap to me ! personally i think the whole freeze or refrigerate your film is a scam
most of the film i have exposed since 1970 has not been refrigerated and i have only had a problem once.

i have and i do, and have never gotten a complaint

YMMV

John,
I don't understand how being familiar with the materials eliminates all risk? For me there are many steps in the process where things can go contrary to what is wished for.

Best,
J

removed account4 · Mar 15, 2017

h jp

what i meant was
if one is using expired materials he or she is famiar with,
and a developer one is used to using with these expired products very little can go wrong.
i've never had things that i didn't really expect was going to happen ... happen.
besides one doesn't have to worry about ink-bleed on film rolls of 120, or UV blocking layers on sheets either &c.

to give an example from my own experience
i have used a ton of expired 120, 4x5 and 5x7 sheets
i procesed them all in either ansco 130 or caffenol c with a little 130 mixed in ..
never had a problem, never missed and exposure .. no "issues"

that isn't to say some people who use or try usng expired products don't have trouble.
but that has been my experience ... ( hundreds of rolls, thousands of sheets, gallons of developer )
i'm not one for perfection though, i don't zone out, i don't densitometer or do lots of tests.
using expired product isn't for everyone, that is why i said YMMV
john

Wallendo · Mar 15, 2017

jnanian said:
cause it is fun ?
there really isn't much to understand .. nothing is risked if you are familiar with your materials.
...

That hits the nail on the head.
I have done a lot of things because I thought it would be fun. Sometimes it is (LomoChrome Turquoise), sometimes it isn't (LomoChrome Purple and a recent roll of mottled Agfa APS film).
A lot of us do a lot of things just because it is fun. I primarily shoot film over digital because it is fun, and I suspect that is the same for many members of APUG.

Cholentpot · Mar 15, 2017

Wallendo said:
That hits the nail on the head.
I have done a lot of things because I thought it would be fun. Sometimes it is (LomoChrome Turquoise), sometimes it isn't (LomoChrome Purple and a recent roll of mottled Agfa APS film).
A lot of us do a lot of things just because it is fun. I primarily shoot film over digital because it is fun, and I suspect that is the same for many members of APUG.

Fun fun fun!

I shot strips and dip tested some expired rolls yesterday. Between '07 and '11 frozen. Bang on developed as fresh. Paid a pittance for them. Now I have enough Tri-x to shoot for a nice long while. I enjoy digital for the photography aspect but film is fun and a joy.

MMBrown · Mar 17, 2017

The timing of this conversation is interesting as Wednesday was "Expired Film Day" over on the Twittersphere. I took the day off work and spent it with my father shooting a great variety of old rolls in various locations. He hadn't shot that much film in 15+ years and we had a blast!

Now I'm here in search of advice. I'm not completely new to expired film but I don't have a great deal of experience either. I developed a roll of Kodachrome 64 of unknown age (DX coded, so not "too" ancient) in Caffenol last night and though there are images there, it's severely fogged. Having seen this before and expecting it again, I'm wondering if there's anything one can do during the development process to compensate for age fogging? Also, my development times have been guesses at best. Does overdevelopment or underdevelopment affect the whole of the film (ie, the edges, spaces between frames, etc.) or just the images?

Gerald C Koch · Mar 17, 2017

I am always interested in doing the very best I can. That excludes using expired film.

removed account4 · Mar 17, 2017

MMBrown said:
The timing of this conversation is interesting as Wednesday was "Expired Film Day" over on the Twittersphere. I took the day off work and spent it with my father shooting a great variety of old rolls in various locations. He hadn't shot that much film in 15+ years and we had a blast!

Now I'm here in search of advice. I'm not completely new to expired film but I don't have a great deal of experience either. I developed a roll of Kodachrome 64 of unknown age (DX coded, so not "too" ancient) in Caffenol last night and though there are images there, it's severely fogged. Having seen this before and expecting it again, I'm wondering if there's anything one can do during the development process to compensate for age fogging? Also, my development times have been guesses at best. Does overdevelopment or underdevelopment affect the whole of the film (ie, the edges, spaces between frames, etc.) or just the images?

hi MMBrown
i haven't ever used caffenol to process kodachrome but
in the flickr group (caffenol palace / https://www.flickr.com/groups/caffinol_private_palace/ )
and reinhold's caffneol blog ( http://caffenol.blogspot.com )
you might get better insights. i think at some point they adjusted their sodium carbonate levels
or added table salt into their strange brew to compensate for fogging ...
i've processed a bunch of c41 + E6 in caffneol, i add a little dektol to it
to give better contrast and it helps with fogging issues i suppose ..
and while i get a little fogging it is more rem jet that gives me trouble.

have fun!

MMBrown · Mar 17, 2017

jnanian said:
hi MMBrown
i haven't ever used caffenol to process kodachrome but
in the flickr group (caffenol palace / https://www.flickr.com/groups/caffinol_private_palace/ )
and reinhold's caffneol blog ( http://caffenol.blogspot.com )
you might get better insights. i think at some point they adjusted their sodium carbonate levels
or added table salt into their strange brew to compensate for fogging ...
i've processed a bunch of c41 + E6 in caffneol, i add a little dektol to it
to give better contrast and it helps with fogging issues i suppose ..
and while i get a little fogging it is more rem jet that gives me trouble.

have fun!

Thanks for the reply! I may see if the caffenol folks have any further insight.

I've experienced the same overall fogging with 50+ year old Plus-X and Tri-X as well so it's not a Kodachrome specific thing. I'm not expecting a crystal clear base but I'd like to make sure my methods aren't contributing to the fogging.

removed account4 · Mar 17, 2017

well, 50 + years old is pretty old, i would imagine you would get fogging
in every developer you put it in. i often times don't bother with the caffenol
and goright for the dektol. 1:5 for 5 mins, ... or while i haven't done this yet
3 mins stand in straight stock solution ( old photojournalist trick ).
the shorter the development time the better .. if you have ansco130 on hand you can use
that too, ( not sure about the stock @ 3mins i never did that ) but a130 is a fantastic lo fog film developer..
good luck

MattKing · Mar 17, 2017

MMBrown said:
I developed a roll of Kodachrome 64 of unknown age (DX coded, so not "too" ancient) in Caffenol last night and though there are images there, it's severely fogged.

Were you successful in removing the remjet and bleaching out the extra silver? Both could be mistaken as fog.

MMBrown · Mar 17, 2017

jnanian said:
well, 50 + years old is pretty old, i would imagine you would get fogging
in every developer you put it in. i often times don't bother with the caffenol
and goright for the dektol. 1:5 for 5 mins, ... or while i haven't done this yet
3 mins stand in straight stock solution ( old photojournalist trick ).
the shorter the development time the better .. if you have ansco130 on hand you can use
that too, ( not sure about the stock @ 3mins i never did that ) but a130 is a fantastic lo fog film developer..
good luck

I unfortunately don't have any other B&W chems (must get some) so making use of what I have So with these old films is it best to use a potent developer for a short time?

MattKing said:
Were you successful in removing the remjet and bleaching out the extra silver? Both could be mistaken as fog.

I believe so. There were one or two opaque spots remaining that came off easily with a swipe, so I think that was all of the remjet. I also thought it may have been insufficiently fixed so I gave it another 3 minutes (after 5 initially). The leader cleared in about 45 seconds so I don't think it's that either, unforunately.

removed account4 · Mar 17, 2017

MMBrown said:
I unfortunately don't have any other B&W chems (must get some) so making use of what I have So with these old films is it best to use a potent developer for a short time?

yes potent and short, or that is what i would do ...
what chemicals do you have handy? just coffee, washing soda and vit c ?

GENERAL FORMULA FOR EXPIRED FILM?

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency