Gender bias in photography analyzed (by some interesting empirical data) and an essay

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Gerald C Koch

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From the article I quote.

We searched for a set of data that was a good snapshot of how the photo industry works and came a across a list of photographers for the Association of International Photographers and Art Dealers AIPAD.

By the same reasoning it was predicted the Dewey would beat Truman in the 1948 presidential election. In this case the list was obtained from the phone book. The poll results were based on telephone interviews. Of course this biased the data to only those who were well off and could afford telephones. Such people were more likely to vote Republican. One has to bee very careful as to the choice of data. Basing assumptions on membership in only one association is very risky. Nerds that write articles like these really need to go back to school and take a course in statistics and learn how to accumulate dependable data. Such data as used for the article would be refused by any reputable scientific journal.
 
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Sirius Glass

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From the article I quote.



By the same reasoning it was predicted the Dewey would beat Truman in the 1948 presidential election. In this case the list was obtained from the phone book. The poll results were based on telephone interviews. Of course this biased the data to only those who were well off and could afford telephones. Such people were more likely to vote Republican. One has to bee very careful as to the choice of data. Basing assumptions on membership in only one association is very risky. Nerds that write articles like these really need to go back to school and take a course in statistics and learn how to accumulate dependable data. Such data would be refused by any reputable scientific journal.

Spot on.
 

Nodda Duma

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Gender bias in photography analyzed (by some interesting empirical data) and ...

Then we should not surmise anything from the abysmal numbers of female representation in government or academia?

All the teachers at my kids' elementary school are women except one. Should I surmise there is a bias against men in academia?
 

dwross

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All the teachers at my kids' elementary school are women except one. Should I surmise there is a bias against men in academia?

Please look back to post #21 and perhaps give this a little more thought (unless, of course, your post was satirical -- lately, it can be hard to tell).
 

Gerald C Koch

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Then we should not surmise anything from the abysmal numbers of female representation in government or academia?

My concern is not only with the conclusion of gender bias but also on how it can be made from the data. We could make the claim that the gallery owners in AIPAD are biased against women and therefore refuse space to women photographers. Such a claim is equally valid.

Having read the article several times I get the impression that the conclusion was made first and a data set found that supported the conclusion. As Charles Dodgson, writing as Lewis Carroll, has the Red Queen say "Verdict first, trial later." Dodgson was a well respected mathematician and logician. Even when writing works for children he could not help but comment on logical fallacies. You just cannot make a valid connection between a membership list and the conclusion that gender bias exists in photography.

I am sorry to say that the present and previous generation are not vary critical in their thinking. They are easy prey for those that are not interested in truth but in perception. The news media and the internet are full of misdirection to borrow a magician's terminology.

The poster is correct when he observes that we should never surmise anything.
 
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CatLABS

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I am sorry to say that the present and previous generation are not vary critical in their thinking. They are easy prey for those that are not interested in truth but in perception. The news media and the internet are full of misdirection to borrow a magician's terminology.

Perhaps you should read the other article in the OP as well.

If you can back up your claim there is no gender bias in the field of photography (or any aspect of society), with hard data, i would like to see it.
 

Jeff Bradford

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Confirmation bias. Men are more likely to be self-agrandizing enough to solicit galleries in which to hang their photos. We probably can't get an actual count of how many total photographs were taken by men vs. women on any particular day, but I guarantee women take far more photographs than men every day. By the same token, more men are professional chefs, but far more meals are cooked by women every day.

Comparing one's self to another is an exercise in diminishment.
 

Sirius Glass

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When all is said and done, it is much ado about nothing.
 

Nodda Duma

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Gender bias in photography analyzed (by some interesting empirical data) and ...

Please look back to post #21 and perhaps give this a little more thought (unless, of course, your post was satirical -- lately, it can be hard to tell).

Oh it's entirely satirical. The point is drawing inferences from small sub samples can be misleading.

Forums are poor vehicles for communication subtleties :wink:
 
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Gerald C Koch

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Perhaps you should read the other article in the OP as well.

If you can back up your claim there is no gender bias in the field of photography (or any aspect of society), with hard data, i would like to see it.

Instead of making conclusions that cannot be logically made has anyone interviewed successful woman photographers and asked them whether they have experienced gender bias? If anything is true it is that gender bias toward woman is decreasing. We have 2 women candidates for president one of whom is a former CEO of a major corporation. We find woman governors, mayors, council members all over the country.

As to the second article, speaking of "dead white men" is hardly discussing the present state of gender bias. Sorry but what these two articles are selling I'm not buying.
 
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CatLABS

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We find woman governors, mayors, council members all over the country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_States_Senate

Surely you must be joking?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_government#United_States Here they say the situation is precarious, i say its ABYSMAL.

You should try your tactic of asking a successful woman is she encountered any gender bias reaching her station in life. If any say no, i will agree there is less bias then i believe there is. I have not yet met such a person who answered no to that question, and i have asked a great many.
 

Gerald C Koch

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Our arguments seem to be going astray from the OP. My comments were toward the methodology of the first article and the assumption that there is a bias against woman photographers. There is a long unbroken line of highly respected women photographers starting with Julia Margaret Cameron.

As far as the two articles they are what Germans would refer to as Quatsch mit sosse, nonsense with gravy on it.
 

Mr Bill

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_States_Senate

Surely you must be joking?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_government#United_States Here they say the situation is precarious, i say its ABYSMAL.

You should try your tactic of asking a successful woman is she encountered any gender bias reaching her station in life. If any say no, i will agree there is less bias then i believe there is. I have not yet met such a person who answered no to that question, and i have asked a great many.

I'm kinda doubtful that individuals can see, for the most part, whether there was a gender bias against them. Unless someone specifically revealed that this was the reason for a failure to hire or promote, how would they know? If they are successful, perhaps they didn't notice such a bias. If not successful, it's easy to put the blame somewhere else, but how can you be sure?

BTW, I've spent my entire adult life working in photography, and I've noticed that nearly all of the equipment and material suppliers have been represented by by white males. It is my impression that this is your line of work, and I wonder if you have any insights into this. Does this business try to exclude women, or is there another explanation? Perhaps women, for the most part, don't want to be alone in unsavory neighborhoods, or perhaps have a harder time carrying heavier sample cases, or the like? Or perhaps women have been discouraged from gaining background experience that is necessary to do such sales work. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, as you seem to be something of an insider, and seem concerned about such things.

ps, I'm not able to see the originally referenced articles, so I don't have any idea what's in them.
 
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Gerald C Koch

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Why do journalists seek to offend with topics? In fact it appears the general public seem to run around in pursuit of being offended to cry out and be "recognized." Looking for problems and examining the possibility of a solution would be far more productive. Alas like everything else today there's little likelihood of finding a profit in that.
 

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duplicate post
 
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Gerald C Koch

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I am afraid that responsible journalism has disappeared. What we have now are sensationalists and wannabe entertainers. We now have is truthiness rather than truth.
 

Mr Bill

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I am afraid that responsible journalism has disappeared. What we have now are sensationalists and wannabe entertainers. We now have is truthiness rather than truth.

This is also my sense, but I do wonder if it's been that way my entire life and I simply failed to see it in my younger days. I believe that I became much more skeptical as I became older and gained experience. I probably form opinions just as quickly, but I keep in mind the possibility that I may be wrong.
 

MattKing

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I have absolutely no doubt that there is and has been gender bias in photography. There is and has been gender bias in just about every facet of western society (probably all society, but I'm not sufficiently experienced with non-western society).

What is more important is, are problems being acknowledged, are things changing, and what steps are being taken to improve that which requires improvement.

If more and more people are making decisions that are not influenced by gender bias, than gender bias will become less and less prevalent.

And statistics are dangerous. The fact that fewer professional art photographers are women doesn't necessarily mean that there is a bias against women. It can just as likely be the case that women have a gender bias against the realities of the art photography world.
 
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CatLABS

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BTW, I've spent my entire adult life working in photography, and I've noticed that nearly all of the equipment and material suppliers have been represented by by white males. It is my impression that this is your line of work, and I wonder if you have any insights into this. Does this business try to exclude women, or is there another explanation? Perhaps women, for the most part, don't want to be alone in unsavory neighborhoods, or perhaps have a harder time carrying heavier sample cases, or the like? Or perhaps women have been discouraged from gaining background experience that is necessary to do such sales work. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, as you seem to be something of an insider, and seem concerned about such things.

It is a sad state of affairs. The public reps for companies on this forum represent almost entirely the world of "business" or "retail" photo. Its enough to visit a show like PPE or Photokina to see it first hand. Go to something like the "photographica" show, and its even more extreme because almost everyone is OLD.

Ever since i started working in this industry, this has been an issue, and a topic raised as often as possible.

There is nothing to it, other then plain old misogyny and sexism. This is simply the result of years and years in which the only players (for any reason you can think of) were white men. Women were and are excluded as a matter of fact, even if subconsciously, because for many years, it was inappropriate for women to all kinds of things, and this type of exclusion was completely socially acceptable. Hey, some people were not considered human until a few decades ago and womens voting rights was something women had to fight for, as it was not commonly acceptable that it was their "inalienable" right as it pertained to men.

It is very daunting and unpleasant to walk into a conference or room filled with old pharts who spend most of the down time telling each other stupid sexists jokes, making remarks on the "why are they nude" models which used to be so prevalent in camera shows in up until very recently (and in some cases still today), and other such deplorable behavior.
This is something which is endemic in society and has nothing to do with photography, but as we all know it was once socially acceptable to pat a women on the behind, this type of homogeneous all white male composition was nothing of note at any point in time in history, and even in todays "de-segregated" US we often have to point out to reps and PR people that not every one in the world is a white European, let alone that not all customers are men. The result was a very unwelcoming environment for women by default, regardless of the intentions of the people working in it.

That perhaps will never change until this generation of old folks retire or pass on. The sad state of things, is that they nurtured and raised an entire new generation of similar minded people in their stead.

Now, we have all been in these rooms, where all men talk this way, but how many of us stopped to think about how a women might feel in that environment? Thats the one and only reason.

That is not to say a thick skinned persons, who is willing to go through that crap and smile at the end of the day might make it, but i can tell you, its no fun at all.

Sigh. Good luck to all those who think there is no gender wage gap, or that women are not discriminated against. Its all easy to say and do when you are a white guy, perhaps if you repeat it enough times it will be the reality of things.

ps, I'm not able to see the originally referenced articles, so I don't have any idea what's in them.
Go the first post and click the links (or google the titles, i am sure you will find them).
 
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CatLABS

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I have absolutely no doubt that there is and has been gender bias in photography. There is and has been gender bias in just about every facet of western society (probably all society, but I'm not sufficiently experienced with non-western society).

What is more important is, are problems being acknowledged, are things changing, and what steps are being taken to improve that which requires improvement.

If more and more people are making decisions that are not influenced by gender bias, than gender bias will become less and less prevalent.

And statistics are dangerous. The fact that fewer professional art photographers are women doesn't necessarily mean that there is a bias against women. It can just as likely be the case that women have a gender bias against the realities of the art photography world.

I wish i could come up with this exact post in the exact wording. Once again matt takes the words out of my mouth.
 

MattKing

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I wish i could come up with this exact post in the exact wording. Once again matt takes the words out of my mouth.

I think that where we differ is that I am possibly more hopeful about current and coming change.

What once was considered the norm - sexist jokes, etcetera - seems more and more to me to be almost universally acknowledged as being inappropriate and cringe-worthy. And not just by young people - by many of the "old pharts" too.
 
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