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Gelatin P.O.P. Collaborative Research Project

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I’m a wannabe and very interested in POP. Thanks!
 
Definitely interested in this - POP is a material I really like the split-toned aesthetics of.
 
I went through this 35 years back. I will be looking forward to seeing results. Printing out paper is pretty amazing.
 
dwross said:
Hi all emulsion makers, wannabe emulsion makers, and photographers interested in historical processes.

The Light Farm has launched a collaborative project researching silver gelatin printing-out paper. Anyone is welcome to participate.

http://thelightfarm.com//cgi-bin/newcarousel/htmlclanslidegen.py?chapter=Intro

All my best,
d @ TLF
Click to expand...
I changed the navigation this morning to make it easier to add new posts. The new address is http://thelightfarm.com/cgi-bin/newcarousel/htmlclanslidegen.py?chapter=pop/Intro
 
That's terrific to hear, Ian. Pick a topic or even one question from a topic and go after it! You certainly have the skills. It's mind-boggling the permutations possible with POP. At the end of this, I'd like to see most of them understood and spelled out. As we go along, we'll figure out how to mesh the questions and answers together into a coherent picture.
d
 
I am totally new to POP. What's the current "state of the art" for us home emulsion makers? Denise, I know you have a section on POP in your book. There's also an extensive post on unblinkingeye by Liam Lawless.

To me, one of the biggest limitations seems to be its poor keeping. Does anyone have any information on how they improved the keeping in the old commercial products?

I'm sure you are all aware of it, but I found an interesting book on POP, out of copyright, and free to read online. Part 2 (starting on page 69) covers the production of POP.

The Gelatino-chloride of Silver Printing-out Process: Including Directions for the Production of the Sensitive Paper by Walter Woodbury
https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=CkwEAAAAYAAJ&rdid=book-CkwEAAAAYAAJ&rdot=1
 
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iandvaag said:
To me, one of the biggest limitations seems to be its poor keeping. Does anyone have any information on how they improved the keeping in the old commercial products?
Click to expand...

This patent may be of interest

I wonder if the commercial papers continued to use a method like this, or altered the pH of the paper base. I think Kentmere coated an RC variant for a while as a Nuclear 'flash' detector or something like that.
 
That is quite interesting; thanks for sharing. I'm a bit surprised that the main mechanism of deterioration seems to be contact with the base side of the paper. I guess the baryta layer protects the emulsion from the same deleterious effects that would otherwise also occur on the front side of the paper?
 
Lachlan Young said:
This patent may be of interest

I wonder if the commercial papers continued to use a method like this, or altered the pH of the paper base. I think Kentmere coated an RC variant for a while as a Nuclear 'flash' detector or something like that.
Click to expand...
All commercial pop paper had an interleaving paper between sheets. Paper still aged
 
I can't say I've been concerned about keeping properties. On the other hand, I tend to use any paper I make very soon after I make it. Kinda the point :smile: . However, aging properties should certainly be a key research topic. I'll make a batch of a KCl/citric acid recipe today just to test storage -- room temp, refrigerator, and freezer. I'll advocate that everyone do the same with their recipes. There are many combinations of chloride and organic acid. Some may have far better or worse keeping characteristics. For now, perhaps, most people interested in POP can learn to make a recipe and print with it, and tackle potential problems down the line.
 
Hi Denise !
This looks like a fun project :smile:. My brain is kind of toast at the moment from school, but I will add in if / when I can. I'm not on FB so I'll have to follow here and your website. Years ago there was a guy here on APUG from Sweden who figured out a way to convert regular emulsified paper into a crude POP paper. I think it had to do with soaking the paper in Salt Peter. I'll see if I can dig up the post ( its 15 years old i think ) maybe his "simple trick" could be of some help.

John

just found it
the photographer's name is lasse Mellberg
and its a 10% solution of potassium nitrate
https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/august-2002.275/
 
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Couple of other things to consider: I wonder if the Kodak 'Studio Proof' product was made on one of the older coating machines that survived into the 1980's with a festoon dryer - and that the messiness of coating it made transferring it on to a newer machine an economically unviable undertaking - and/ or whether the level of batch variation/ wastage (ie coat a lot, and ruthlessly bin the bad bits) was unacceptable on a cost/ performance basis. I'd definitely be interested as to whether Bob Shanebrook (@laser ) had any involvement with the manufacture of this product - and what sort of problems it gave.
 
After our discussions here back in May, I was curious if there were any tricks to the paper support that was used in commercial POP production. So I contacted Kit Funderburk, the former Senior Technical Manager for Paper Science and Technology at Kodak. Kit was incredibly generous with his time and gave me some great information. If you have not downloaded and read Kit's book (available on TLF), I recommend it!

From some documentation Kit found in 1974, there were as many as 12 additional product lines that were coated on the identical support as Studio Proof (POP). Kit said he was fairly confident that nothing special was done in preparing the support used for print-out paper. I thought I would post this tidbit here for those interested. So it seems as though the poor keeping of POP is likely something to do with the emulsion preparation rather than interaction with the paper. Thanks Kit!
 
I can attest that different papers will give different and or lousy results.
I'm more interested in the paper tints that add just that something subtlety to the photo
Personally I prefer using fixed out glossy photo paper to watercolor.; which is nice but not my choice. Have had no luck with matte surface but am trying again in the next few days
If you want results consistancy is the key to making pop. Pick a formula and stick with it
Until you know it well...me I'm not choosy and prefer results over experimenting
 
I'm of the opinion that added critic acid to the pop emulsion will increase contrast
I only went from 2 grams to 2.25 grams but it looks like it does. I used negatives that had a low SBR range and they came out looking great
 
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