Galleries to see high-quality large optical prints in the US?

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DREW WILEY

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What amazed me is how the painting galleries on the glitzy south shore of Maui were displaying stuff even worse than Lik in Lahaina. Paintings of Hawaiian scenes so amateurish that they wouldn't have fetched a hundred dollars on the mainland were priced in the tens of thousands. Location, location, location, plus some questionable manipulation skills of naive buyers by big grin sales agents. The same tricks are played on our own tourist waterfronts. I always wondered why people can't put two and two together. If the fancy poster or whatever is going to appreciate 1000% in value over the next decade, why the heck isn't the salesperson themselves buying it instead?
 

koraks

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Ah, I see; this one is easy to settle. The only thing we have to agree on is the definition of art. Looks like we'll be able to bring this to a conclusion within 3-4 posts, tops.
 

gary mulder

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Ah, I see; this one is easy to settle. The only thing we have to agree on is the definition of art. Looks like we'll be able to bring this to a conclusion within 3-4 posts, tops.

yes, easy.

brillo_boxes.jpg
 

DREW WILEY

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Well, no more cruise ships in Lahaina. Even the dock burned. Nothing left of its gallery row.
 
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So you knock his reputation and skill on gossip you read without firsthand experience other than looking at his photos on the web claiming you're "not fond of them", who has made tens of millions selling his photographs from his galleries in the biggest cities in the world.

Sorry to be truly abundantly snobby, but Peter Lik's photographs are atrocious. McDonalds makes millions selling cardboard boxes filled with slop, but I don't base my evaluation of the food on the revenue figures. These candy color landscapes have been photoshopped within an inch of their life. It's the kind of stuff you see as stock backgrounds on cheap PC computers.

With a guy like Lik you could see at one time he really enjoyed landscape photography and probably did some cool stuff with Velvia and a Fuji GX617 or something...but somewhere along the way he discovered a plan to fleece 'marks' and ran with it. Honestly go get a digital camera, take a rudimentary picture of a tree...shadow slider to +100, clarity +50, Saturation +++. Boom you too can be a MASTER.

Also did anyone else catch that he's got some kind of home building business on his website? Talk about synergy.
 
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DREW WILEY

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Lik is following the painter Tom Kincaid's business model, who got into building sticky sweet theme subdivisions where everything was designed and color matched by him. Halfway into that project he was indicted, and drank himself to death. Lots of "investors" in his artwork had already lost their retirement savings, imagining that mass-produced works would hold value as if real paintings. But that was all dependent on more and more and more people buying into the same trend, just like a pyramid scheme. What actually ended the run is a little more complicated - stiffing his own gallery franchisees to make up the loss, as his decor empire rapidly caved in on itself. His life story would make an interesting movie, with a sad Shakespearian ending.

Lik is more cautious than that, but has had his near-misses with the law. He's opening up a gallery where Michael Fatali shut one down, who is presumably now retired. Fatali could make seamless big Ciba prints of Southwestern subjects that truly were almost psychedelically colored in nature - entirely credible if one has themselves encountered similar things in that part of the world - actual iridescent reflections in desert-varnished slot canyon streams, and so forth. No Photoshop needed. But he too was tourist oriented, and got tempted into sandwiched composite images, yet highly detailed due to optical rather than digital printing, based on stacked 8x10 chromes - quite a qualitative contrast to Lik's comparatively smudgy and grossly artificially colorized inkjet work.

Fatali was quite a BS marketer too, claiming extraordinary "appraisal values" for some of his prints, and having "waited for the light" days on end at "secret" locations actually visited by many, who see the same things, but just don't have the big camera or darkroom facility to render it that way. Then there was his serious altercation with Smokey the Bear, which ruined his reputation among other outdoor photographers, and got him banned from Natl Parks for awhile. So it goes. The sad thing is that none of that nonsense was really necessary. Someone either likes your work or they don't, when they walk into the gallery.
 
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Ah, but are the providers representing to you that the cruise ship art is likely to appreciate in value as an investment?
That is where the Peter Lik approach bothers me.
The fact that his cruise ship art isn't as much to my taste as others might be is irrelevant to my consternation.

Yes. By the way, most sales on ships are by bids. Of course, the gallery sets a minimum price for the first bid that he knows makes them their profit regardless if there's only one bid. That's a little shady too, I suspect. Lik was just more successful at it. But the main point I was arguing is to learn from his salesmanship. That's legit. How he hires cool smart, attractive salespeople. Opens up magnificent galleries. His presentation of his photos is amazing, often beating the photos themselves. We can learn from those skills, even if you don;t like his photos.

Why do so many people buy art? For investment purposes, as well as decorating. Don't any photographers here sell their photos let;s say an edition of 20. As more are sold, they raise their prices of what's left, arguing that their prints are now more rare, so their value has gone up. That's a lot of hokum. Well, that's what Lik does, as do most professional artists. Just don't guarantee the appreciation. That's what stock salesmen do. They imply but don't guarantee it will go up.
 

BrianShaw

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Yes. By the way, most sales on ships are by bids. Of course, the gallery sets a minimum price for the first bid that he knows makes them their profit regardless if there's only one bid. That's a little shady too, I suspect.

Cruise ship art is like cruise ship jewlery is like cruise ship casino gambling: all are entertainmnet no matter how they are marketed. But why is setting a minimum bid where a profit is assured shady? Seems like good business to not take a loss, auction or otherwise. Ha you stated that misrepresentation of investment potential was shady I'd be more inclinded to agree, excpet for it's just another PT Barnum style marketing.
 
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Cruise ship art is like cruise ship jewlery is like cruise ship casino gambling: all are entertainmnet no matter how they are marketed. But why is setting a minimum bid where a profit is assured shady? Seems like good business to not take a loss, auction or otherwise. Ha you stated that misrepresentation of investment potential was shady I'd be more inclinded to agree, excpet for it's just another PT Barnum style marketing.

If I recall, they get it on both ends. First, the minimum bid. Then a 15% sales fee at whatever the winning bid was.
 

Milpool

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They probably sell a grand total of 0-1 out of the edition plus the “artist proofs” they sell to themselves. Hurry to get in on the ground floor.
Why do so many people buy art? For investment purposes, as well as decorating. Don't any photographers here sell their photos let;s say an edition of 20. As more are sold, they raise their prices of what's left, arguing that their prints are now more rare, so their value has gone up. That's a lot of hokum. Well, that's what Lik does, as do most professional artists. Just don't guarantee the appreciation. That's what stock salesmen do. They imply but don't guarantee it will go up.
 

DREW WILEY

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As the ship roulette wheels roll, the captain at the helm wheel doesn't seem to notice that there's a big iceberg straight ahead until it's too late. Big dreams can sink fast.
 
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I would also chime in to say, since we talked about Cibachromes. I was really thinking that Phoenix was going to be the return of Ciba/Ilfachrome. Harman already makes direct positive B&W materials, it doesn't seem crazy to me that they'd make a color option. I'm guessing it would be less for printing than it would be for in camera work.

You can process Ciba in a Jobo so it's not crazy to me that they could roll something like that out. I'm liking Phoenix II and I'm happy they're making a C41 film, granted...but that material was pretty special and inkjet doesn't really come close. Nor does RA4 for that matter with the really low-con paper Fuji is cutting to sheets these days. Even I'm doing my color work with a Canon Pro-1100 these days.

One of my favorite artist works with the medium in MASSIVE room sized cameras and they're some of the most stunning color images I've ever seen. They really need to be seen in person to be appreciated. (https://www.richardlearoyd.studio/) <- Some very mild, but ultimately NSFW nudes in his portfolio FYI.

His book is in stock still too: https://aperture.org/books/day-for-night/

For the OP, if he/she can find one of Richard's shows, you will not be disappointed.
 

koraks

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I was really thinking that Phoenix was going to be the return of Ciba/Ilfachrome.

I don't see a technical relationship between the Phoenix R&D trajectory and Ciba/Ilfochrome. If it would end up as a printing material (and there's no sign of that in any way), it would end up being something much more similar to RA4 in being a chromogenic rather than a dye destruction process.
 
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I don't see a technical relationship between the Phoenix R&D trajectory and Ciba/Ilfochrome. If it would end up as a printing material (and there's no sign of that in any way), it would end up being something much more similar to RA4 in being a chromogenic rather than a dye destruction process.

I think my expectation came from the fact that they called it Phoenix which implied that it would 'rise from the ashes'. Where as the actual Phoenix that we got, is something altogether new.
 

MattKing

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As the Cibachrome/Ilfochrome part of the Ilford entity still exists on the opposite side of the globe, I'd be surprised to see the printing material come from the part of the former corporation that is associated with England.
 

koraks

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I think my expectation came from the fact that they called it Phoenix which implied that it would 'rise from the ashes'. Where as the actual Phoenix that we got, is something altogether new.
Ah yes, I see. I think we're supposed to interpret the rise-from-the-ashes as a reference to the first color negative film Ilford introduced in 1960. Or perhaps to the return to anything related to color in the analog domain at all.

Or maybe they just thought the firebird is cool and they're all huge fans of Strawinsky down there in Mobberley.
 

DREW WILEY

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All that Cibachrome/Ilfochome capacity is long gone and not coming back. They dabbled in RA4 at one time too. Now any kind of color material coming out of that is just inkjet paper. A whole industry would have to be completely resurrected, including a market too. At today's cost levels and more stringent enviro regulations, it's not going to happen. Even the special base material would have to be resurrected.

All the processing drums left in the world wouldn't even be a drop in the bucket compared to daily Ciba consumption in its heyday. It was processed in up to 50 inch wide rolls by multiple commercial labs in this area alone. Those big roller transport machines had to be specially built to survive the sulfuric acid bleach;
workers lungs didn't do so well either. I did it in drums outdoor instead, and used up to 40 inch wide rolls; but most of my work was smaller.

In terms of look, as well as at least analogous PET full gloss base, Fujiflex Supergloss is its successor - even better, but RA4, so printed from either color negatives or scanned inverted chromes. Hopefully, it will be around awhile more, but hard to say; it's coated in Japan.
 
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