FYI Kodak : Directors rally to save film factory

[Dr Croubie]

Yeah, how many companies can survive a 96% drop in sales? I can't name a single company that rode that wave and lived.

Well, I'm not sure about exact figures, but in a more broad sense Leica, Rollei, Hasselblad, Ilford, and surely a lot more have all weathered the same storm if not exactly the same wave, although a lot have gone bust and restructured or been bought and resurrected in the process. Some have moved into very low-volume high-price high-margin high-prestige products to survive. I'm looking at you, Leica and Rollei, although the current Hasselblad is trying to target the nouveau-riche (read: tasteless) in China with their unfortunate Luna.
Leica's even doing quite well for itself despite the prices of their latest digital gear and lenses.
Rollei are still around, just, but how many $8000 film-only Rolleiflexen (Rolleiflices?) can you realistically expect them to sell in a year? Their on-again off-again 6008 / Hy6 thing just never seemed to get anywhere, not sure if it's permanently off yet or not...

You can even think about companies like Nokia, once the king but then died a slow death to be bought out, or bApple, once good, then dying a slow death, but then reinvigorated again to be almost undisputed king for a while (until Samsung and Android came along).

 

[RattyMouse]

From the Wall Street Journal article, it's pretty clear that this deal was Kodak's Hail Mary to stay alive in film. Without this help from Hollywood, Kodak's film days were over.

Now I understand why Kodak took a pass every time asked if they were committed to film's future. They know for certain that they cannot sustain film production without Hollywood's support.

Thank you HollyWood!

 

[analoguey]

What about other movie film industries? There's enough and more being made elsewhere - not everyone can be a digital convert yet?

/I anyways havent used much Kodak at all, I shoot fuji/Ilford

Sent from Tap-a-talk

 

[RattyMouse]

From the WSJ: "Mr. Clarke said that he expects Kodak will lose money on film manufacturing in 2014 and roughly break even by next year, based on the deals currently being worked out. By 2016, he hopes that sales to touchscreen manufacturers combined with projected demand from Hollywood will move Kodak's film business back into the black."

How does a touch screen maker use photographic film? I'm really confused about this.

 

[darkosaric]

Well, I'm not sure about exact figures, but in a more broad sense Leica, Rollei, Hasselblad, Ilford, and surely a lot more have all weathered the same storm if not exactly the same wave, although a lot have gone bust and restructured or been bought and resurrected in the process. Some have moved into very low-volume high-price high-margin high-prestige products to survive. I'm looking at you, Leica and Rollei, although the current Hasselblad is trying to target the nouveau-riche (read: tasteless) in China with their unfortunate Luna.
Leica's even doing quite well for itself despite the prices of their latest digital gear and lenses.
Rollei are still around, just, but how many $8000 film-only Rolleiflexen (Rolleiflices?) can you realistically expect them to sell in a year? Their on-again off-again 6008 / Hy6 thing just never seemed to get anywhere, not sure if it's permanently off yet or not...

You can even think about companies like Nokia, once the king but then died a slow death to be bought out, or bApple, once good, then dying a slow death, but then reinvigorated again to be almost undisputed king for a while (until Samsung and Android came along).

Very good examples. What company in that situation needs to survive is change of the mindset. Does Kodak have that? I don't think so.

 

[Xmas]

Yeah, how many companies can survive a 96% drop in sales? I can't name a single company that rode that wave and lived.

Denial Fuji are hurting Nikon and Canon for market share.

 

[benjiboy]

I was interested recently to read that a company was referred to as having a "Kodak moment" not in the accepted sense, but in the context that it completely failed to anticipate how new technology would impact on the it's products and how it would effect the sales.

 

[kb3lms]

How does a touch screen maker use photographic film? I'm really confused about this.

They don't. The articles have confused different types of "films" - meaning film in the generic sense, not photographic film. Many touchscreens have a film bonded to the front that is used to sense the touch. Kodak makes a type of this film. There are also films bonded inside LCD panels and Kodak has made some of those as well. I'd have to assume that Kodak produces these films using the same coating line - which makes some sense. Their coating lines can probably coat all kinds of things with the proper modifications at the coating head end of the line. The substrate used for the touch film I know about is CTA, same as for movie film. Once you get by the peculiarities of coating emulsion, the photographic coating process isn't particularly different from many other coating processes.

My concern about it would be that most all LCD panels are made in China and I would imagine the necessary films are produced there as well, not in the USA, but maybe EK has a foot in the market, IDK.

Jason

 

[AgX]

They don't. The articles have confused different types of "films" - meaning film in the generic sense, not photographic film. Many touchscreens have a film bonded to the front that is used to sense the touch. Kodak makes a type of this film.

Most likely they do not any longer, as they sold their TAC production, and that is what these covers are made of (if not PET is used). The same issue arose when AgfaPhoto went down and their TAC plant was in need of new markets.

 

[redstarjedi]

Bottom line: this is the only reason Bldg. 38 won't be demolished -- for now. If it had been, subtleties concerning different bases for motion picture and various types/sizes of still film would be moot. Still films from Rochester would have ended too.

How long Eastman Kodak will continue to operate Bldg. 38's coating line and Kodak Alaris will continue to purchase/re-sell still film made by that line remain unknowns.

But do we actually know that the SAME plant uses the SAME machines to coat both motion picture film and still camera films? I really prefer movies shot on film over digital. However, i'm willing to live with digital movies, but if still camera film dies in the same plant closure then so does my photography.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

But do we actually know that the SAME plant uses the SAME machines to coat both motion picture film and still camera films?...

Yes. Bldg. 38. One coating line. All that's left. Everything else has been demolished/scrapped.

...if still camera film dies in the same plant closure then so does my photography.

When Bldg. 38 eventually reaches its end, only Eastman Kodak-manufactured still camera film will become unavailable. There are other first-tier quality still camera film manufacturers to choose from. There's no reason why your photography should stop at that point.

 

[redstarjedi]

God fuckin' damn it! Now I'm scared.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Now I'm scared.

Why?

 

[redstarjedi]

If the last coating machine is shut down due to low motion picture film sales then no more portra ektar or tri-x

 

[Sal Santamaura]

If the last coating machine is shut down due to low motion picture film sales then no more portra ektar or tri-x

Your posts indicate you're a 35mm shooter. You'd have lots of black and white options instead of Tri-X. In color negative, choices from Fuji are limited, but still available.

Personally, I think film's future is black and white. Digital is slowly killing color film off; it's just a matter of how soon.

 

[Roger Cole]

I think eventually Sal is right. I will continue to shoot and enjoy color film while it's available, but my heart originally belonged to and came back to black and white. There are ample excellent choices there. I could actually quite happily pursue my black and white photography using only Ilford materials. I'm glad to have other choices including Foma and Adox for film and paper, my beloved LPD paper developer, Diafine etc. but if I needed to I could use 100% Ilford for black and white and not feel like I was really lacking anything.

 

[Xmas]

so does my photography.

You can still use Foma, Lucky,... and Ilford film. Ilford have done colour in the past.

EK won't make any more film when they fulfil their bankruptcy court order as at the volume they sell it would not be profitable.

KA may continue to coat paper @ Harrow UK if it is profitable.

You are feeding green stuff to a dinosaur on a life support machine.

 

[Roger Cole]

I wouldn't bet that they will make no more film. Nothing is certain.

But it does bring up the question of whether anyone else would start making color film if we lost Kodak. Ilford has the tech to do it but knows their market niche and is business smart. They'd only do it if it really made sense. Ferrania may still make E6 and it probably wouldn't be a jump to C41, but right now Kodak's superb C41 materials would make it silly for anyone else to enter the market. That might change without Kodak (or Fuji might expand their C41 offerings back to more like they used to be.)

 

[MattKing]

You can still use Foma, Lucky,... and Ilford film. Ilford have done colour in the past.

EK won't make any more film when they fulfil their bankruptcy court order as at the volume they sell it would not be profitable.

KA may continue to coat paper @ Harrow UK if it is profitable.

You are feeding green stuff to a dinosaur on a life support machine.

The only two issues decided by the bankruptcy proceedings with respect to film production were:

1) Still film marketing was sold, along with a bunch of other related rights, to the UK Kodak employee pension plan, to settle claims by that plan that had certain statutory priorities over other claims; and
2) Eastman Kodak owed certain rebate monies to the various motion picture studios as a result of the volumes of film they had purchased in accordance with their pre-bankruptcy contracts. The bankruptcy court changed the rebate amounts owed, while still leaving in place the still valuable contracts.

 

[Xmas]

The only two issues decided by the bankruptcy proceedings with respect to film production were:

1) Still film marketing was sold, along with a bunch of other related rights, to the UK Kodak employee pension plan, to settle claims by that plan that had certain statutory priorities over other claims; and
2) Eastman Kodak owed certain rebate monies to the various motion picture studios as a result of the volumes of film they had purchased in accordance with their pre-bankruptcy contracts. The bankruptcy court changed the rebate amounts owed, while still leaving in place the still valuable contracts.

KA in effect get any profit from stills film sales and now own EKs Harrow plant?

The big studios did a barter deal with the court for their cine exclusive contracts which expire 2015, hence the urgency of the current studio/Kodak horse trading, the studios said no to the first horse this is the second one.

EK increased cine $ 15% Jan14 but now say they will make a loss, in 14?

Valuable contracts you make a loss on are not sustainable?

'Certain rebate monies' were not peanuts.

EKs letter in Oct13 said increased overheads due to reduction of volume but since film is mainly material their volume may already be too low and 15% will reduce sales further?

eg when I use last year's stache of 1200 foot of 5222 I need to decide on Orwo cine, Foma or Ilford bulk, cause the rest of the 5222 purchase group have gone d-------.

Only bought 5222 cause it was cheaper, at 15% it is history unless the others track the increase.

 

[RattyMouse]

Your posts indicate you're a 35mm shooter. You'd have lots of black and white options instead of Tri-X. In color negative, choices from Fuji are limited, but still available.

Personally, I think film's future is black and white. Digital is slowly killing color film off; it's just a matter of how soon.

I think you are 100% right. We now know for certain that Kodak's days of making film are over once Building 38 is demolished. Kodak along with a few Hollywood directors have gone to enormous measures to try to put this off, but how long can they succeed? They have only bought a few more years at most and then, the effort will have to start all over again.

I wonder what Fujifilm's situation is regarding color film. We know that Kodak operates one massive coating line, but what about Fuji? Are they small enough to support the color shooting market now? They were never hugely into movie film so I would suspect (but cant prove) that they have a better chance surviving long term if they are smaller than Kodak's building 38.

If would be a shame if Kodak hanging on for a few more years, caused Fujifilm to close up shop, and then just a few laters Kodak finally expires and building 38 is demolished.

 

[removed account4]

all i gotta say about a bunch of directors rallying to save film is
it would make a great movie,maybe they can have quentin tarrintino
direct it? and while he is at it ... it can be a double feature with
"the case of the missing tmax400"

 

[Xmas]

I think you are 100% right. We now know for certain that Kodak's days of making film are over once Building 38 is demolished. Kodak along with a few Hollywood directors have gone to enormous measures to try to put this off, but how long can they succeed? They have only bought a few more years at most and then, the effort will have to start all over again.

I wonder what Fujifilm's situation is regarding color film. We know that Kodak operates one massive coating line, but what about Fuji? Are they small enough to support the color shooting market now? They were never hugely into movie film so I would suspect (but cant prove) that they have a better chance surviving long term if they are smaller than Kodak's building 38.

If would be a shame if Kodak hanging on for a few more years, caused Fujifilm to close up shop, and then just a few laters Kodak finally expires and building 38 is demolished.

I read that " they might only buy a few more years." not a done deal yet?

Fuji are shrinking like Kodak, they now only do one mono film Acros - the stills market is way small? A large part of Kodaks overheads are a big companies management, who are incompetent, it is not the machine that is 100% of the problem. A large fraction of films (production) cost is input raw materials.

Fotokemia did the best far IR film and good other emulsions but folded cause they had limited sales. So you are not wrong about the big destroying the small in their death spasms.

You need to think about Ilford, Lucky, Foma, Orwo, etc. Colour might come back like impossible but it might not be C41. note Ilford do coat a c41 film XP2+, well worth a test shot sequence at ISO 50, 100, to 1600 if you home print or scan don't get the mini lab to print. But if colour c41 dies then the mini labs vanish as well.

The lomo shop I use on Sundays has closed so it's mini lab is not available for Sunday shoot rushes.

Ferrani need to get volume E6 out their door soon to keep even somevE6 labs intact.

Anyone needs to do the same for C41 film for the C41 mini labs.

The people who make mini labs can't be seeing much future sales?

It is as easy to home process C41 as mono but not many people bother with either.

 

[darkosaric]

Fotokemia did the best far IR film and good other emulsions but folded cause they had limited sales. So you are not wrong about the big destroying the small in their death spasms.

Actually main reason of Fotokemika fall was unfortunate situation:

1) privatization from state ownership to private ownership went wrong after fall of communism. Fotokemika is only one example of many dead factories in Croatia after wrong and criminal privatization.
2) Land that the factory was build on was not in the ownership of the factory.

I was regular guest in Fotokemika factory for many years while I lived in Zagreb - spoke not once openly with those people there. Sales and demand were not a biggest problem for Fotokemika.

 

[Xmas]

Actually main reason of Fotokemika fall was unfortunate situation:

1) privatization from state ownership to private ownership went wrong after fall of communism. Fotokemika is only one example of many dead factories in Croatia after wrong and criminal privatization.
2) Land that the factory was build on was not in the ownership of the factory.

I was regular guest in Fotokemika factory for many years while I lived in Zagreb - spoke not once openly with those people there. Sales and demand were not a biggest problem for Fotokemika.

I had based my comments not on web 'gossip' but instead on what I payed for their film. It was too cheap for its quality and performance.

Their IR was unique after Kodak stopped HIE.

In UK if you own the factory or the land an assett stripper will buy the company sell the land and factory as applicable and sell the company on at large net profit.

My brick camera shop had just sold their building and moved...