FYI - film issue.

[Xmas]

If you freeze carrots they taste different from cooked from fresh?

 

[Ian Grant]

Humidity will always affect film, but I would dismiss this in this case. Consider our 2 other clients in the US with the same problem [one in the mid-west, the other in AZ], with the same fresh 2016 film. Our Singapore client bought the film at the photo store, then shot it. IDK how the rolls were stored prior. Freezing film has been common, in practice for many years. I have a freezer full of deep frozen film that does not have this problem - ever... some of it ILFORD film. Film manufactures store master rolls in deep freeze to sell as fresh years later. ALL film companies do this.. Shooting a totally frozen roll does not create this effect - I know this from personal practice.

I think only an engineer who makes the film on this scale can really say what is causing this for sure. I know there to be many such examples on this very forum, that have gone unresolved.

dw

The mistake is to assume that the local ambient humidity is part of the issue, it isn't, it's what is taking place in a sealed wrapper when the film is allowed to warm up too quickly, and all 3 locations you mention are hot climates,

There is always some moisture in the paper base, it's not much & it needs to diffuse slowly it'll be absorbed by the emulsion with no problems as long as the warm up is slow.

Ian

 

[Xmas]

Ian

So you are suggesting move film from freezer to fridge for 24 hours before exposing to ambient?

I've several problems

- this is mono and slow PanF and FP4 which I frequently store for years at ambient 10-25C, freezing it will condense the residual water you mention and crystallise it what happens to water in the emulsion? Colour I keep in fridge in ziplock silica gel (@5C on fridge therm).

- where/how do you store your film?

 

[R.Gould]

In spite of the fact that I do not use Ilford film, I believe that their QC is second to none and the OP should not cry wolf until such time as Ilford have been given a chance to investigate and report back as to the problem, if any, with the film, after all, how would they like it if someone reported problems with their process on an open forum without being given a chance to investigate first, In todays world it does not take much to ruin a reputation, and Ilford is probably one of the best in the business, if something like this affected them it would be the worse for all here, so let's wait and give Harman a chance to sort things out, and if the problem is not the film itself but the way it was stored/used/processed

 

[Sirius Glass]

In spite of the fact that I do not use Ilford film, I believe that their QC is second to none and the OP should not cry wolf until such time as Ilford have been given a chance to investigate and report back as to the problem, if any, with the film, after all, how would they like it if someone reported problems with their process on an open forum without being given a chance to investigate first, In todays world it does not take much to ruin a reputation, and Ilford is probably one of the best in the business, if something like this affected them it would be the worse for all here, so let's wait and give Harman a chance to sort things out, and if the problem is not the film itself but the way it was stored/used/processed

+1 and I use Ilford

 

[Michael W]

In spite of the fact that I do not use Ilford film, I believe that their QC is second to none and the OP should not cry wolf until such time as Ilford have been given a chance to investigate and report back as to the problem, if any, with the film, after all, how would they like it if someone reported problems with their process on an open forum without being given a chance to investigate first, In todays world it does not take much to ruin a reputation, and Ilford is probably one of the best in the business, if something like this affected them it would be the worse for all here, so let's wait and give Harman a chance to sort things out, and if the problem is not the film itself but the way it was stored/used/processed

search "Pan F spots" on this forum and see how many results you get. Never resolved. This looks the same.

 

[Xmas]

search "Pan F spots" on this forum and see how many results you get. Never resolved. This looks the same.

It certainty does look the same, but if you search for e.g. Tmax spots you get similar results?

Simon the Ilford person said on one of the Tmax threads he was sure 99.99% it would not be Kodak cause of their QC.

Ive had similar problems with a colour film 50 years ago but that was cause of my processing error and Ive not had a similar problem since...

The majority of the spotty problems seem to be 120 so it is backing paper or thin base dependent, or people are mistreating the film, or Blind Pew is active?

I do have some different problem with Kodak but not Ilford or Foma or Efke, or APX100 (old).

I dont freeze, dont prebath, dont acid stop, and temper within 1C...

 

[Athiril]

I've had this in high developer temperature and very high developer pH when I was playing around mixing my own.

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian

So you are suggesting move film from freezer to fridge for 24 hours before exposing to ambient?

I've several problems

- this is mono and slow PanF and FP4 which I frequently store for years at ambient 10-25C, freezing it will condense the residual water you mention and crystallise it what happens to water in the emulsion? Colour I keep in fridge in ziplock silica gel (@5C on fridge therm).

- where/how do you store your film?

Yes film should go from freezer to fridge (refridgerator) before finally warming to room temperature.

I keep my film in my darkroom, but when I'm in Turkey it's in a bottom drawer even in the summer when the ambient daytime temperature can be around 30-40ºC, the rawer stays cooler.I

Ian

 

[R.Gould]

search "Pan F spots" on this forum and see how many results you get. Never resolved. This looks the same.

I have had so called spotty problems from time to time, on films from Kodak, Ilford and Agfa, over the years, on all speeds of films, mostly on 120, but also on 35mm, I have ALWAYS been able to track it down in the end to processing error, no matter how good we may think we are, and I'm no different to anyone else here, we all make mistakes, sometimes though being in too much of a hurry, sometimes though thinking about something else, on more than one occasion though a faulty thermometor, it happens , but I have yet to be able to say that I have had a film with QC issues from anyone, including Foma,which is my most used film, so I still say don't knock Ilford until anyone can say with certainty that their QC is at fault, I would be the first to say QC issues if I was certain, but untill Ilford see the film and the problem then don't say Film Issue, it could be any number of things, including some form of processing error,or handling error
Richard

 

[Rudeofus]

Please note, that this is not some noob reporting a problem, dr5chrome is not the kind of guy who makes trivial mistakes then goes whining about Ilford. Sadly, this issue popped up during a time which many take off as holidays, and I suspect this is the reason why Simon Galley hasn't jumped in yet. Give it some time ...

 

[Xmas]

Dr5 blames ilford for PanF spots for not replying in past as well as FP4 for this ocassion - pending as you suggest.

Simon says for Tmax spots he is sure it is not Kodak 99.99%.

That leaves Dr5 or the users note this is three year old film and if it was a inherent batch problem we might had notice of it already? Like the PanF

The users may well have mishandled the film if they are all in hot climes.

Eg
Putting mono film in freezer required careful consideration, like don't, do you freeze yours?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodak, Ilford and Fuji have QC departments equal to none. If you have a problem with one of their films it is most likely due to the user and not the maker. In this case, frozen film going into a hot wet atmosphere can be the culprit and can be restricted to paper base films. The paper base is made to resist this problem but it can fail when stressed enough.

Going into a freezer, you should pack all of your film in airtight plastic bags and when removing them you should leave them in the bags (sealed) until they reach room temp, or about 1 hour passes. Reseal any film left in the bag.

PE

 

[Sirius Glass]

Three people out of 10,000 have a problem. The problem is with the three people.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

Three people out of 10,000 have a problem. The problem is with the three people.

And what else do the three have in common?

 

[Xmas]

Well no not if Dr5 batches like me you would lose a whole batch not just individual customers...

But it is hard telling customers they are delete perjorative word...

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear All,

I have read this post and I would reply as follows:

1 ) This is not a manufacturing fault. This film was coated ( and finished ) in November 2103.

If this batch had a fault we would have known with our own testing, it didn't.
Nor do we have a QC level against this batch that would suggest a manufacturing
fault, nor a fault that developed post coating.

2 ) This film does exhibit a fault post processing, this fault is not necessarily with the processing :

As with any performance issue with any ILFORD Photo product it should be returned to us ( the full address is in the thread) , it will be investigated and if it is a fault in manufacture we will replace the product and tell you if it is our fault.

All companies that have iso 9001 accreditation as we do, have a system to do this, this system is audited annually.

Two statements in the thread need a reply :

From DR5Chrome ' film manufacturers store master rolls in deep freeze to sell years later, all film companies do this'

Well this film company does not do that, never has, never will, I cannot speak for other companies but I would be astounded if any stored parent rolls in this manner ( ie as frozen ).

We coat 46 weeks out of 52 ( 6 weeks are holiday and deep machine maintenance ) why would we ever coat when all we would need to do is store ? When we do coat we do store film as parent rolls as part of the normal supply chain and stock rosta, its kept in a conditioned area, never frozen and for a period of weeks.

From Grommi ' They probably got a bad supply of paper'

No we didn't, we never do, 120 backing paper is a highly sophisticated coating and construction made to exacting standards, these standards cannot be varied, each batch is tested, as is every raw material used in every manufacture of ILFORD Film or Paper products.

Monochrome film, and all ILFORD Films as finished product in its packaging and suitably protected can be frozen ( or kept cold as refrigerated ) that will help to extend its life beyond the 'use by' date. Ensure all film from frozen or refrigeration is allowed plenty of time to come up to normal room temperature.


Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[Xmas]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_and_the_Wolf_(1946_film)

 

[R.Gould]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_and_the_Wolf_(1946_film)

Got it

 

[MattKing]

Dear All,

I have read this post and I would reply as follows:

1 ) This is not a manufacturing fault. This film was coated ( and finished ) in November 2103.


Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Thanks for the clarity in your post Simon.

But you might want to check the coating date.

And with respect to the thread generally, I wonder whether the proprietary process that dr5chrome uses to obtain reversal results might reveal problems/differences that wouldn't otherwise appear in a more typical process run.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

Dear All,

I have read this post and I would reply as follows:

1 ) This is not a manufacturing fault. This film was coated ( and finished ) in November 2103.

Awesome. We now know that film will be around for a while! Whoo hoo!

 

[Xmas]

And with respect to the thread generally, I wonder whether the proprietary process that dr5chrome uses to obtain reversal results might reveal problems/differences that wouldn't otherwise appear in a more typical process run.

Any reversal process has more steps and is more likely/exposed to have problems, with film or process. Simon's testing will be done with reference developers. Ditto the other people using the film from same batch.
Eg the Foma reversal process is likely to be similarly exposed.
E6 is not easy.
Just bought 100 foot of FomaR 16 mm (for 110 and Kiev30) stills but going to stay 'negative' though I do have a subminiature projector!

 

[Sirius Glass]

Dear All,

I have read this post and I would reply as follows:

1 ) This is not a manufacturing fault. This film was coated ( and finished ) in November 2103.

If this batch had a fault we would have known with our own testing, it didn't.
Nor do we have a QC level against this batch that would suggest a manufacturing
fault, nor a fault that developed post coating.

2 ) This film does exhibit a fault post processing, this fault is not necessarily with the processing :

As with any performance issue with any ILFORD Photo product it should be returned to us ( the full address is in the thread) , it will be investigated and if it is a fault in manufacture we will replace the product and tell you if it is our fault.

All companies that have iso 9001 accreditation as we do, have a system to do this, this system is audited annually.

Two statements in the thread need a reply :

From DR5Chrome ' film manufacturers store master rolls in deep freeze to sell years later, all film companies do this'

Well this film company does not do that, never has, never will, I cannot speak for other companies but I would be astounded if any stored parent rolls in this manner ( ie as frozen ).

We coat 46 weeks out of 52 ( 6 weeks are holiday and deep machine maintenance ) why would we ever coat when all we would need to do is store ? When we do coat we do store film as parent rolls as part of the normal supply chain and stock rosta, its kept in a conditioned area, never frozen and for a period of weeks.

From Grommi ' They probably got a bad supply of paper'

No we didn't, we never do, 120 backing paper is a highly sophisticated coating and construction made to exacting standards, these standards cannot be varied, each batch is tested, as is every raw material used in every manufacture of ILFORD Film or Paper products.

Monochrome film, and all ILFORD Films as finished product in its packaging and suitably protected can be frozen ( or kept cold as refrigerated ) that will help to extend its life beyond the 'use by' date. Ensure all film from frozen or refrigeration is allowed plenty of time to come up to normal room temperature.


Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Thank you. We knew the fault was not with the manufacturing, packaging nor manufacture warehousing.

 

[dr5chrome]

With all due respect... As a very seasoned film processor, Mr Galley, you might wish to reread what I posted. To conclude that this was a "process" problem, is, well, insulting to intelligence.

I feel like a broken record ... This effect occurred in our custom dr5-slide process, as well, the very same effect as a negative. The rolls we ran as negative were run in ID-11. This effect CAN NOT happen 'in-process' - that would be impossible. The condition of this film pre-exsisted development. This effect occurred with 3 separate [one not as bad as the other] clients 1000's of miles apart. The negative, this pattern is darker spotting. http://www.dr5.com/CHANtestneg.jpg

Our client in Singapore bought this film, then shot it [according to them]. As I am told he does have more rolls of this same purchase. I would be happy to supply you with a contact of our client in Singapore. Maybe he will send you an unprocessed/unshot roll he has. Maybe I will have them send those unshot rolls he has to us, and conduct some tests on the unused rolls.

Let me be clear - I did not insinuate this to be a manufacture problem. It is however a problem ILFORD should address. There are many other posts on APUG addressing this same condition, NOT just this one... you should look those up.

You have the facts, conditions, and stated issue with an image sample. What you or ILFORD do with this is info is your prerogative. In the 'years' I have seen this condition, ILFORD has never addressed it, and by your reply, it seems again, they will not this time as well.

For the record - We run a 100% quality processing lab. NO film is run at this lab unless our lines are 100%; B&W-slide, B&W-negs, E6, C41.

Maybe the approach you should take should be less on the defense, but to help find the cause to this problem... just my opinion.

dw/dr5

Dear All,

I have read this post and I would reply as follows:

1 ) This is not a manufacturing fault. This film was coated ( and finished ) in November 2103.

If this batch had a fault we would have known with our own testing, it didn't.
Nor do we have a QC level against this batch that would suggest a manufacturing
fault, nor a fault that developed post coating.

2 ) This film does exhibit a fault post processing, this fault is not necessarily with the processing :

As with any performance issue with any ILFORD Photo product it should be returned to us ( the full address is in the thread) , it will be investigated and if it is a fault in manufacture we will replace the product and tell you if it is our fault.

All companies that have iso 9001 accreditation as we do, have a system to do this, this system is audited annually.

Two statements in the thread need a reply :

From DR5Chrome ' film manufacturers store master rolls in deep freeze to sell years later, all film companies do this'

Well this film company does not do that, never has, never will, I cannot speak for other companies but I would be astounded if any stored parent rolls in this manner ( ie as frozen ).

We coat 46 weeks out of 52 ( 6 weeks are holiday and deep machine maintenance ) why would we ever coat when all we would need to do is store ? When we do coat we do store film as parent rolls as part of the normal supply chain and stock rosta, its kept in a conditioned area, never frozen and for a period of weeks.

From Grommi ' They probably got a bad supply of paper'

No we didn't, we never do, 120 backing paper is a highly sophisticated coating and construction made to exacting standards, these standards cannot be varied, each batch is tested, as is every raw material used in every manufacture of ILFORD Film or Paper products.

Monochrome film, and all ILFORD Films as finished product in its packaging and suitably protected can be frozen ( or kept cold as refrigerated ) that will help to extend its life beyond the 'use by' date. Ensure all film from frozen or refrigeration is allowed plenty of time to come up to normal room temperature.


Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[dr5chrome]

Matt - Without going into details - this is a correct assumption. The procedure and formulation of dr5 does enhance the qualities of all films we run: http://www.dr5.com/blackandwhiteslide/rltests.html
These tests were done by a client of ours [testing the process]. Sometimes an issue with a film will show up in the chrome, but be hardly noticeable in the same film run as a negative. This mottle condition however is so bad, it would make no difference how you ran it, as we indicated.

best regards, dw/dr5

Thanks for the clarity in your post Simon.

But you might want to check the coating date.

And with respect to the thread generally, I wonder whether the proprietary process that dr5chrome uses to obtain reversal results might reveal problems/differences that wouldn't otherwise appear in a more typical process run.