Future Apo-Sironar S companions

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Hi:

In slowly building my 8x10 kit, I opted for one great lens I could come to know well and keep for a very long time, a Rodenstock Apo-Sironar S, rather than a couple lenses I might eventually replace. I am now spent but happy. Thinking forward, though, what would be 240mm, 480mm or 600mm lenses at the same level of quality to look out for?

J
 

EdSawyer

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pretty sure there were apo sironar S lenses made in 240mm and 480mm lengths.
 

Dan Fromm

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Ed, the longest Apo-Sironar-S in my Rodenstock data sheets (see https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=8D71BC33C77D1008!135&authkey=!AESpkw0t4oWnLtY&ithint=folder%2cpdf) is a 360/6.8. There's a 480/8.4 Sironar-N. Perhaps that's what you were thinking of. There is indeed a 240/5.6 Apo-Sironar-S.

Long taking lenses tend to be large and heavy, plasmat types like Sironars more so than Apo Nikkors and Apo Ronars. I've seen Apo Ronars offered in shutter, can't recall which focal lengths. To get an idea of what can be done when money and a shutter can be found, see http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/table-of-lenses-fitted-to-shutters Note that the 600 Apo Nikkor is a 37 degree tessar type and the 610 is a 46 degree dialyte.

OP, don't be obsessive about getting what people and advertising agencies say is the best lens. Modern lenses from, in alphabetical order, Fuji, Nikon, Schneider and Rodenstock are functionally equivalent. Directions to catalogs etc. are here:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?res...005&authkey=!ACp3Kf30SHN3MwY&ithint=file,docx

You'll gain more image quality by improving your technique than by getting a lens that might resolve a few lp/mm more than the alternative. Buy on condition and price and don't forget to budget for a shutter overhaul. Until proven otherwise all used shutters need overhauls.
 
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Jarin Blaschke
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Sure. I really don't want to get get caught up in hype, but moving to 8x10 is 20 years in the making and I think my technique has now become pretty good. At this point I'm seeking that last 2-5%. However, the subjective difference is what I find most important. Not just subjective sharpness but more importantly tonality and dimensionality. This is why I came to prefer Mamiya lenses to the harsher Hasselblad/Zeiss lenses when shooting medium format and the real reason why Leica glass is truly marvelous - it's not just mtf data.

Anyway, in the Rodenstock line, for a 480mm, does anyone have any thoughts on the Apo-Ronar vs. the Apo-Sironar N? Aside from the image circle size? I wish we could still rent LF gear and try things out for ourselves. Lens and Repro was a bit cooky with some characters, but I really miss it for this nonetheless...

Jarin
 

Leigh B

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Hi:

In slowly building my 8x10 kit, I opted for one great lens I could come to know well and keep for a very long time, a Rodenstock Apo-Sironar S, rather than a couple lenses I might eventually replace. I am now spent but happy.
Hi Jarin,

You don't say which focal length -S you did buy, so it's difficult to recommend a future purchase.

I have all available focal lengths, since I think they're the best lenses available for LF.
I shoot 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10.

The only FL shorter than 240 that may cover 8x10 is the 210mm with its 316mm image circle.
I have that lens, along with the 180mm, 150mm, and 135mm, none of which will cover 8x10.

- Leigh
 

Leigh B

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OK. There's a 360mm APO Sironar-S, but that's only trivially longer than your 300mm... not worth the effort.
There are no longer FLs in that series.

I've owned/used APO_Sironar lenses of all varieties that I know of, and they've all been excellent.

Rodenstock says the APO-RONARs can be used with LF cameras having a long side not greater than half the focal length.
So a 480mm lens is good for 240mm (9.5").

A 600mm would be good for 300mm (11.8"), but they don't make a 600mm APO-RONAR.
In fact, the Rodentock catalog shows no lens longer than 480mm in any product series.

Here's a Rodenstock catalog:
http://www.prograf.ru/rodenstock/largeformat_en.html#Apo-Ronar

You'll note in the diagrams that all versions of the Sironar share the same basic design, with 6 or 7 elements.
In contrast, the APO-RONAR is a 4-element lens. That usually means less extensive correction of aberrations.

- Leigh
 
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Leigh B

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Wrong! And not the best source. See the Rodenstock catalogs that I gave a link to in post #3.
Wrong? Please specify what's wrong.
What I said was:
A 600mm would be good for 300mm (11.8"), but they don't make a 600mm APO-RONAR.
In fact, the Rodentock catalog shows no lens longer than 480mm in any product series.

Your link in post #3 does not work. I tried it previously.

I have about a dozen Rodenstock catalogs of various vintages, from current to ancient.

There is one from HP Marketing (undated) that shows 480mm in the Sironar-N and APO-Ronar product lines.
I didn't mention that because those are not current products.

No current product line has a focal length greater than 360mm.

- Leigh
 

Dan Fromm

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Wrong? Please specify what's wrong.
You wrote and I reacted to:
A 600mm would be good for 300mm (11.8"), but they don't make a 600mm APO-RONAR.
In fact, the Rodentock catalog shows no lens longer than 480mm in any product series.

That's what's wrong. When Apo-Ronars were current, the line included, among others, 600/9 and 1800/18.

About the link. I tried it, it works. But try this one too. https://1drv.ms/w/s!AggQfcczvHGNh20tYC0PTw-0u69C
 

Leigh B

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That's what's wrong. When Apo-Ronars were current, the line included, among others, 600/9 and 1800/18.
Hi Dan,

OK. That's ancient history. I thought we were discussing lenses < C years old.

About the link. I tried it, it works. But try this one too. https://1drv.ms/w/s!AggQfcczvHGNh20tYC0PTw-0u69C
I looked at that previously.

It's just a page full of links to other sites.

I have no time to delve through thousands of pages looking for something that's relatively inconsequential.

If you have a direct link to a relevant Rodenstock catalog in PDF format, kindly present it.

- Leigh
 
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"Blank page"??
There are 9 pdf documents in that cloud...

upload_2016-11-30_12-47-46.png
 

Leigh B

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"Blank page"??
There are 9 pdf documents in that cloud...
It's probably the security s/w on this machine blocking randomized links.

This machine is locked down tighter than a nun's whatever.

I requested a simple link to a PDF file.
Apparently that's beyond the ability of the poster.

- Leigh
 

Eric Leppanen

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Back in my 8x10 days I also went for the last 2-5% of image quality, practicality (weight/bulk) be damned. I owned the full Sironar-S 8x10 trifecta: 240, 300 and 360mm. Magnificent lenses all, albeit a pain to haul around in the field (they required a separate carrying case of their own, aside from the camera backpack).

The Sironar-S 300 is a wonderful lens and a good anchor to build an 8x10 lens set around. The Sironar-S 360 is a bit less practical in the field, primarily due to its larger size. Going longer than 360 involves weighing various trade-offs.

I have never owned a 480 Sironar-N or any of the APO Ronars, but I have owned a couple lenses that you may want to consider: a 480mm Schneider APO Symmar L plasmat (for maximum image quality) and a 450mm Nikon M tessar (for practicality). The Schneider has a distinct look compared to the Rodenstock: it has arguably smoother (some have called it creamier) tonal transitions with a smidgen less edge contrast, although overall clarity, color saturation and resolution are similar. I used to speak of the Schneider as being "sneaky sharp." It is also significantly smaller/lighter than the Sironar N, despite having the same rated image circle. The Nikon has slightly less overall contrast but, darn it, is much much smaller and oh so practical. Its rated image circle is also conservative, and as a practical matter I found it to have a larger usable image circle than the Schneider, even when used for enlargements. If you are shooting architecture you may actually run out of image circle with the Schneider, and may find the Nikon to be a more practical choice.

For the 600mm focal length, it comes down to how much extension your camera has, how long your arms are, and how much you need front movements. If you have sufficient extension and long arms, it's hard to go wrong with the 600mm Fuji C. Just be sure to use a hood with this lens to avoid bellows flare, as it has a very large image circle. There are also two telephoto choices: the Nikon T (commonly available, relatively compact and practical) and Schneider APO Tele Xenar (relatively esoteric, larger/heavier and very expensive). The Nikon has a bit less contrast and a smaller image circle than these other lenses, although camera movements may be less important with such a longer focal length. The Fuji and Schneider provide the best absolute image quality, if that is the sole objective.

There is also a less conventional, more controversial option: the Cooke XVa convertible lens (311, 476, 645mm focal lengths in one lens). The Cooke coatings are arguably superior to the Sironar-S, but the Cooke 311 configuration has a smaller image circle and for the life of me I could not get satisfactorily sharp images from the longer focal lengths (which require hugely long camera extensions). On the other hand, some folks swear by this lens. YMMV. It is very expensive.

On a separate note: in my personal experience, I found 8x10 long lens landscape shooting to be ultimately disappointing. Many factors conspire against image sharpness: shutter kick (all the 600mm lenses above use large Copal 3 shutters), camera stability (a substantial camera with multiple tripods is often necessary, as is an umbrella to deflect the wind), and local atmospheric conditions (haze, convection currents). Even if camera stability was assured, I often found myself getting high resolutions photos of haze, even when using a cutting filter. Of course, I live in the SW United States, where haze is a major problem. Again, YMMV.

There are tons of posts about all these lens choices over at the LF camera forum.
 

Dan Fromm

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It's probably the security s/w on this machine blocking randomized links.

This machine is locked down tighter than a nun's whatever.

I requested a simple link to a PDF file.
Apparently that's beyond the ability of the poster.

- Leigh
Dammit, I gave you a simple link and the screen shot in post #14 shows where it will take you. Other people have used it successfully. Apparently using a simple link to a set of PDF files is beyond your ability.
 

DREW WILEY

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I'm not going to read thru all the foregoing comments but just cut to the chase and tell you how I prefer to do it, with my own 8x10 kit. This involves
lenses which are not only superb optically and with generous image circles, but lightweight, compact, and highly portable. So for the wide, I use
a 240 Fuji A, as well as an older equivalent 250 Schneider G-Claron. Then mid-range, several 360's, with the Fuji A being my favorite, then a 450
Fuji C, which I never leave behind, and then up to a 600 Fuji C, which I only sometimes carry. Usually when I want to specialize in very long perspectives, I find a 4x5 monorail more versatile than the 8x10; but the same lenses can be used. I'd rather have lenses like these than big old
school klunky plasmats, which might be fine in a studio, but will prove miserable to lug around.
 
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I had a APO Artar 600 in a Copal 3 back when I shot 8x10. Fantastic lens and it wasn't that big all things considered. Wish I wouldn't have sold it.

You haven't said what kind of photography you do either which makes a difference. If you are shooting color I would stick with the Rodenstocks. For black and white your options are greater since it doesn't matter as much.
 

DREW WILEY

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All modern lenses should do fine with color. I'd pit a Nikkor or Fuji against a Rodenstock any day of the week.
 

MLG

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Jarin, if I were you ("seeking that last 2-5%"), I wouldn't opt for second hand lenses. You never know their history and real world performance. Fortunately, there are still brand-new Rodenstock Sironars and others available...
 

Luis-F-S

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I'd get a 19 inch and a 24 inch Artar in Copal 3's
 
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DREW WILEY

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All that extra fuss and significant expense of chasing that mythical extra 2-5% is going to be lost if everything else in the workflow isn't equal. For
example, expect to lose 10% if you have ordinary filmholders and not precision one, some more % when you find out big 3 shutters often induce more vibration and front standard wobble than small shutters and more than cancel out the allgeged optical improvement. If you use a ballhead or
flimsy tripod for 8x10, might as well save the money and carry a Holga. If you use glassless carrier in the enlarger, might as well smear vaseline
over the lens to begin with.
 

Luis-F-S

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That also assumes that the OP sees something worth photographing and can actually do it. Edward Westin did just fine with a five dollar lens that most of his friends though he paid too much for it.
 
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