Fujifilm Kills Two More Films

[benjiboy]

Well, if the products are cancelled, then it is hardly fair to call him Chicken Little. He just reported a fact. Just as I can say that the analog industry is taking a real hit right now.

BTW, a week or so ago, Kodak laid off about 30 people in the film plant here due to decreased demand!

PE

But he seems to report disaster constantly with such relish .

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Good points. Ilford benefits from being much more right-sized for the shrunken market and focused on monochrome only, but they also benefit from being very transparent and accessible. We asked for cool tone developer and a true IR film and Simon took it to the board and reported back. He had to report back "we can't do it, the market isn't big enough" but he heard our requests, took them up the line, and came back with a straight answer that didn't change three times in the next six months.

And just to balance that ledger a little bit, we also asked for the return of postcard paper...



Ken

 

[Photo Engineer]

But he seems to report disaster constantly with such relish .

Yes, and we end up with such fun threads as this one!

PE

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

I'm buying, and shooting, way more than I have time to process. I have a backlog of 29 rolls, yes twenty-nine rolls, of black and white to develop, 22 in 120 and 7 in 35mm, plus maybe a half dozen sheets. And I have 12 rolls of color sitting here on my desk now ready to pack up and ship to Dwayne's. Exactly how much more should I buy? I'm a hobbiest. I shoot what I can afford and have time for (and way more than I actually have time to develop and print!)

Ok, ok. You're right. Many of us here buy plenty. I should have said not ENOUGH people out there like us.

BTW, here's my backlog stash. Each 4x5 holder with two negs, over 40 35mm rolls and almost twenty 120 rolls awaiting development. I usually develop 3-4 rolls a weekend. Problem is I often shoot 4-6 rolls! This weekend included. And Sunday is NOT over yet either!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Now, regarding sheet films.

The bulk of Kodak film is coated on 5 mil or thinner support. This is for the Motion Picture, 35mm and 120 markets. The 4x5 film is on special order 7 mil support. This is what drives up the costs, as I suspect that Ilford's product mix is more even and thus can be costed out more evenly.

There are other factors in this as well such as the very low demand for sheet film (which may rise as more people dig out their LF cameras and make plates).

BUT, remember again that there are about 70,000 members here, but only a small fraction ever post or even use film. I would estimate about 10 - 20% actually use film, or perhaps less. And that usage cannot support three volume manufacturers.

As for business models, for those who missed this, in 2005, when Ilford faltered, Agfa failed and EK left the paper busienss, the models said there would be a 35% drop in film sales in 1 year. Well, that took place in 1 quarter and did a LOT of damage to all of the companies making film and paper. And look! Where is EFKE today? It was ideally suited to small custom runs, but could not make a profit, not even enough to keep the machines running or the buildings in suitable repair.

PE

 

[Roger Cole]

Efke also suffered from a peculiar catch 22 in not selling enough to keep repairs up or manage good QC and bad QC severely impacted their sales, at least to judge from what I read here and on LFPF.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Roger Cole]

Ok, ok. You're right. Many of us here buy plenty. I should have said not ENOUGH people out there like us.

BTW, here's my backlog stash. Each 4x5 holder with two negs, over 40 35mm rolls and almost twenty 120 rolls awaiting development. I usually develop 3-4 rolls a weekend. Problem is I often shoot 4-6 rolls! This weekend included. And Sunday is NOT over yet either!

View attachment 83996

Ok, you have me beat! And if I developed even two rolls a weekend I'd not have a backlog. And I confess the only reason I have so much color awaiting a trip to Dwyane's is that my wife and I spent an entire week doing Mardis Gras in New Orleans. Partly that's just such a colorful place and set of events it called for color, but I also knew I'd never get around to processing it all if I shot much black and white! I did shoot some 645 Tri-X in St. Louis cemetery #1 though.

 

[MattKing]

Now, regarding sheet films.

The bulk of Kodak film is coated on 5 mil or thinner support. This is for the Motion Picture, 35mm and 120 markets. The 4x5 film is on special order 7 mil support. This is what drives up the costs, as I suspect that Ilford's product mix is more even and thus can be costed out more evenly.

There are other factors in this as well such as the very low demand for sheet film (which may rise as more people dig out their LF cameras and make plates).

B

PE

This says to me that if Kodak Alaris were to start looking to re-start another (smaller) film coating line, the sheet film might be a good place to start.

 

[erikg]

A master roll each month, Roger. Each and every one of us. And if any one of us can't hold that pace, misses just one month, then all the layoffs, the failed business models, the stock collapse, the bankruptcies, the patent debacle, the infrastructure demolitions, all of it, it's all our fault. Like it or lump it...



Ken

Damn! Never has my picture taking seemed so important. I don't think I can handle the pressure.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Alaris will most likely not start a film line. It would probably take a whole new coating machine.

As for EFKE, I think they were caught in between being too small and too old. IDK. They certainly had quite a few QC issues as you say Roger.

PE

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Damn! Never has my picture taking seemed so important. I don't think I can handle the pressure.

No worries. I seem to recall the number tossed around was something like only 35,000 rolls, give or take, of 135-36 per master roll. And that's only 48-49 rolls per hour, every hour.

We have faith in you...



Ken

 

[RattyMouse]

But he seems to report disaster constantly with such relish .

You need to improve your reading comprehension. It is sorely lacking.

 

[Aristotle80]

Mardi Gras film evangelism!

Ok, you have me beat! And if I developed even two rolls a weekend I'd not have a backlog. And I confess the only reason I have so much color awaiting a trip to Dwyane's is that my wife and I spent an entire week doing Mardis Gras in New Orleans. Partly that's just such a colorful place and set of events it called for color, but I also knew I'd never get around to processing it all if I shot much black and white! I did shoot some 645 Tri-X in St. Louis cemetery #1 though.

Mardi Gras is right! For the last six years I've used Mardi Gras to spread the word about film photography being alive. I caught a lifetime's worth of beads 20 years ago, so it's all about candid parade photography and documenting float designs now. Medium format days are the best. I typically set out with two or three folding cameras and a couple TLRs. A sleeve of color rolls, a sleeve of BW. Any time I notice someone giving me a long look I offer to let them look through my TLR's waist level finder. Minds blown! They often gasp that it's like the LCD screen on the back of their digital camera. Same size but no battery! I show them my technique of shooting over the heads of the crowd, upside down like a periscope. The kids love it too. Older folks often ask if film is still made and sold, and I tell them to check APUG for knowledge and community. The film is fresh, affordable, and out there at a number of online stores! (There isn't really a serious local camera/photography store anymore with serious focus on film photography. Some dabble in it, but it seems they think of us as second class citizens. For a while I took film to Bennett's in Metairie, but last time I did it was like I had grown a third eye so I stopped going. Kadairs in Baton Rouge did a ton of 6x6 color enlargements for me a year ago, but they went belly up. NOTHING in Baton Rouge anymore.)

 

[Roger Cole]

I shot one roll of Portra 400 with my Yashicamat 124 and got many compliments about the camera and a couple of directed premium parade throws, but trying to shoot a close up moving parade with an 80mm lens and WLF (no need to shoot over a crowd, we stayed at a place on Lyons right at the corner of Magazine and this was a day parade on Magazine - we had a great spot) was more than I wanted to do, not to mention the 12 shots per roll. I went back to shooting 35mm Provia 100 after that roll.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[37th Exposure]

I suppose if you wait about 20 years when people start losing their digital photos due to crashed drives and deteriorating media, as well as engineered obsolescence on the part of the digital mafia, people might start coming around OR the digital industry will start paying attention to image longevity. Hopefully the world supply of film will hold til then. In the meantime, play Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust" one more time

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Evangelism?

My three main users right now are all bellows cameras, two of them handheld. The Calumet C1 8x10/5x7/4x5, the venerable Crown Graphic 4x5, and the Fuji GF670. (I also still have my dad's 35mm Retina Ia to complete the cross-format bellows user set.)

All are kept in pristine, like-new cosmetic and mechanical condition, because I realize you only get one chance to make a first impression.

These give me almost non-stop opportunities to talk about film and quality and patience and pace and thoughtfulness and fun. APUG and Freestyle are my two most-mentioned conclusions. I always smile when I see someone, especially someone young, eyeing me curiously from across the street. I know what's coming.

And to be honest with you guys, I look forward to it. In my experience, the days of put-down abuse for using film and/or semi-antique cameras ended quite a while ago. Now it's only curiosity from the younger, and respect—sometimes mixed with envy/guilt—from the older, who still remember.

I've also mentioned before that I purposely carry a two-step stool in the back of my truck when out with the 8x10 setup. Several times I've had moms stop and ask if their kids (and sometimes not just the little ones) can look up under the cloth, just to see what's going on. One even pulled her car over to ask. I've never ever said no.



Ken

 

[Rudeofus]

I suppose if you wait about 20 years when people start losing their digital photos due to crashed drives and deteriorating media, as well as engineered obsolescence on the part of the digital mafia, people might start coming around OR the digital industry will start paying attention to image longevity.

This reported decline in film use and the resulting discontinuation notices do not so much come from a further drive towards digital, but rather from a general decline in the overall photographic market. For those who didn't know, digital camera and accessory sales are hurting badly right now.

 

[Roger Cole]

Digital is hurting because of camera phones which already produce results far better in far worse light than consumer cameras of my youth like the 126 Instamatic and (ugh) 110s. They are more than good enough for most people. It's not that fewer photos are taken as there are almost certainly more taken than ever before. It's just that most people don't need a single purpose camera to take the kind of photos they want anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Nuff]

This reported decline in film use and the resulting discontinuation notices do not so much come from a further drive towards digital, but rather from a general decline in the overall photographic market. For those who didn't know, digital camera and accessory sales are hurting badly right now.

The big issue with digital is, everyone one thinks that their camera is good enough and there's no need to upgrade. The cameras exceed most users abilities. Even something simple as latest iphone takes great photos for 99% of the people out there.

Film has a niche market in the unique look. It really should be marketed more, since it does look very different than digital. Even if it's not the major force in the future. But with the right marketing the sales should go up by few percent.

 

[eddie]

Several times I've had moms stop and ask if their kids (and sometimes not just the little ones) can look up under the cloth, just to see what's going on. One even pulled her car over to ask. I've never ever said no.



Ken

I've had many similar experiences, Ken. I've never said no either. I can't count how many times I've put someone under the dark cloth. I've also explained what I'm shooting, how I'm metering, and what I plan for the finished image, for those interested. I'm not looking for converts... just hoping people learn there are people who care about their craft, even if their craft is seen as archaic and has been (seemingly) marginalized. Sharing one's passion is fun...

 

[erikg]

No worries. I seem to recall the number tossed around was something like only 35,000 rolls, give or take, of 135-36 per master roll. And that's only 48-49 rolls per hour, every hour.

We have faith in you...



Ken

Oh man. Can't talk, gotta shoot. Anybody got a motor drive for an 8x10?

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Sharing one's passion is fun...

The moms will wade right in where the dads are sometimes reluctant to tread. When it comes to doing something for their kids, the moms are fearless. Nothing stops them. Sometimes they'll even take a peek as well.

Ken

 

[Jaf-Photo]

Digital is hurting because of camera phones which already produce results far better in far worse light than consumer cameras of my youth like the 126 Instamatic and (ugh) 110s. They are more than good enough for most people. It's not that fewer photos are taken as there are almost certainly more taken than ever before. It's just that most people don't need a single purpose camera to take the kind of photos they want anymore.

Again, I think it's a matter of complaicency on the part of the manufacturers.

I notice that more and more people become interested in photography because they have started taking photos with their phones. They want a real camera to take better pictures.

But for many people the learning curve from instagraming snapshots with presets, to editing raw files in Lightroom is too great. I've had to help quite a lot of people undrstand the workflow. Unfortunately, many of them think it's too much work.

That's one of the problems with analogue film today. Apart from a few pro labs, it'll take a couple of weeks to have a film developed. And the scans are usually very poor. Most people are not interested in investing time and money into developing or scanning at home.

I think the manufacturers really should take some steps to make life easier for the transition customers.

 

[lxdude]

Anybody got a motor drive for an 8x10?

Um, Ansel Adams used a station wagon with a platform on top...

 

[Nuff]

Again, I think it's a matter of complaicency on the part of the manufacturers.

I notice that more and more people become interested in photography because they have started taking photos with their phones. They want a real camera to take better pictures.

But for many people the learning curve from instagraming snapshots with presets, to editing raw files in Lightroom is too great. I've had to help quite a lot of people undrstand the workflow. Unfortunately, many of them think it's too much work.

That's one of the problems with analogue film today. Apart from a few pro labs, it'll take a couple of weeks to have a film developed. And the scans are usually very poor. Most people are not interested in investing time and money into developing or scanning at home.

I think the manufacturers really should take some steps to make life easier for the transition customers.

If someone can come up with correctly priced product which offers development, scan and internet upload, a lot more of the Instagram generation people would pick it up. But none of the current manufacturers is even aware of sites like Facebook, Twitter or Instagram. Not to mention how to integrate their services with them.

Drop of your film and few hours later it's on Facebook or Flickr. It can't be that hard!