Fujifilm 400

[koraks]

@miha I have no reason to doubt what my contact told me: that Kodak has aggressively purchased large volumes of 35mm canisters in an effort to limit their own supply problems. I also have no reason to disbelieve that the worldwide manufacturing capacity of such canisters is limited, given the niche market it is.

 

[brbo]

I'm sure Eastman Kodak buy the cassettes (or the individual components), canisters and boxes from 3rd parties.

The mystery Fuji finisher buys exactly the same components and uses exactly the same machinery with the exact same setup? I mean, Kodak and Fuji boxes even have expiration date printed at exactly the same position, down to a millimetre. Exactly the same font, too.

I guess, theoretically, there could be such a finisher that is used by nobody else but Fuji (for their US made films), but you have to admit that there is a MUCH simpler (and probable) explanation.

 

[miha]

@miha I have no reason to doubt what my contact told me: that Kodak has aggressively purchased large volumes of 35mm canisters in an effort to limit their own supply problems. I also have no reason to disbelieve that the worldwide manufacturing capacity of such canisters is limited, given the niche market it is.

I have no reason to doubt your sources either since I don't know them to begin with. Still I fail to see why you brought Foma in. No sign of shortage of their 135 film - and I would notice since I do a lot of "window shopping" and Foma is often my prefered choice across the formats. What is more Foma is offering these canisters via their shop so they have more than they need for themselves for whatever reason.

 

[koraks]

Still I fail to see why you brought Foma in.

Because that's what my contact did. As said, he's a retailer, one of the prominent ones in my country (probably the most prominent), and as said with direct contact with Foma as well as other parties. I get what information you bring up, but don't see how it would disprove anything my contact said. Stocks can linger anywhere in the supply chain, Foma 200 isn't the fastest running film in the retail channel, temporary supply interruptions may be absorbed in some places but not in others, what's listed on a webshop may not be indicative for what's happening in a manufacturing line, etc. There's any number of reasons why the information you glean from personal experience and websites is not necessarily at odds with what I said. Moreover, there's no reason why my contact would lie, or be lied to, about this. It's just in nobody's interest. Towards me, he's always been perfectly transparent about what he knows (and doesn't know) in terms of what's happening in the trade.

 

[Arcadia4]

when we hear that SinoPromise is having trouble getting stock, and The Kodak Pension fund who owns Kodak Alaris has had to call for help, one does sometimes get that aching acid indigestion that perhaps alaris is limited in the amount of product that they can commit to order at a time? Eastman Kodak having fought insolvency ,may be requiring payment in advance. something that perhaps is somewhat easier for a diverse chemical, Drug and technology firm like Fuji?

I suspect you are correct. Film manufacture requires quite a bit of cash committed up front on materials and so this maybe a limiting factor on how much Alaris can have on order at any one time. It easy to forget eastman is the manufacturer now only for still films, so other than any contractual rules, its not for them to prioritise kodak branded product over another. Hence makes sense for eastman to take on contract work for fuji if they have the cash to pay for it, even at the expense of potential capacity for kodak still film branded product. I don’t doubt that its all output on the same finishing lines as kodak and the lomo 35mm films.

 

[miha]

Because that's what my contact did. As said, he's a retailer, one of the prominent ones in my country (probably the most prominent), and as said with direct contact with Foma as well as other parties. I get what information you bring up, but don't see how it would disprove anything my contact said. Stocks can linger anywhere in the supply chain, Foma 200 isn't the fastest running film in the retail channel, temporary supply interruptions may be absorbed in some places but not in others, what's listed on a webshop may not be indicative for what's happening in a manufacturing line, etc. There's any number of reasons why the information you glean from personal experience and websites is not necessarily at odds with what I said. Moreover, there's no reason why my contact would lie, or be lied to, about this. It's just in nobody's interest. Towards me, he's always been perfectly transparent about what he knows (and doesn't know) in terms of what's happening in the trade.

There could be diferent resons why Fomapan 200 type 135 was out ouf stock at your retailer of choice. I understand I you see no reasons not to trust your guy but lack of cassettes seems least plausible to me. If true, why would Foma offer these cassettes for sale for many years now? Check this thread already from 2021: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/what-happened-to-the-metal-35mm-film-cassettes.187573/ post #5.

 

[Nitroplait]

Kodak/USA made Fujifilm 200 has replaced Japanese made Fujifilm C200 in the EU by now but Japanese made Fujifilm Superia X-tra 400 is still available (in abundance at the camera stores I buy from).

I was told today that the stock I bought from today, had just arrived. It came with a 2025/06 expiry date.
Given that the EU change from C200 to 200 came a few months after the change in the US, I'd imagine we will see the same happen again delayed with the 400.

I'll probably go and buy another brick or two Monday, and cry a little, as I do not expect Fujifilm to resume production again if they can make a profit from selling rebadged Kodak Gold and UltraMax.

 

[koraks]

@miha I don't see the point in going over the same arguments again.

 

[Nitroplait]

Thanks for the heads up! I honestly don't care what the "real" film is inside as it's the only color film we may get at $6/roll (if that's accurate).

Absolutely a typo. More likely $15.99. A 3 pack is listed as $39.99

 

[miha]

@miha I don't see the point in going over the same arguments again.

Me neither. Let's rather find our what this Kodak-Fujifilm alliance is all about.

 

[Duceman]

Sorry for asking, what is SOL?

Stripping Operating Line

 

[pentaxuser]

Me neither. Let's rather find our what this Kodak-Fujifilm alliance is all about.

I wish you luck, Miha, there seems to be an explanation for every question but of course no-know really knows nor will we ever know


Basically and in summary, everything that happens has a good reason, even if it seems strange to some of us but not to others. What happens is driven by circumstances alone and is essentially nobody's fault

Que sera, sera, whatever will be will be, the future's not ours to know etc Don't worry, be happy by not probing. After all you may not like what you find

pentaxuser

PS I think the word in the Doris Day song is actually "see" to rhyme with the previous "be" but "know" is probably the better word here and avoids a lawsuit for copyright

 

[skylight1b]

Absolutely a typo. More likely $15.99. A 3 pack is listed as $39.99

Interesting. Didn't see that until now. Unless the typo remains, I'll probably won't bother with this film then.

 

[koraks]

Me neither. Let's rather find our what this Kodak-Fujifilm alliance is all about.

I think over time, some clues will pop up. For now, it looks to me mostly like a fairly common and opportunistic buyer-supplier relationship with rebranding of an existing product. I see no signs of a true alliance in that sense.

 

[cmacd123]

@miha I have no reason to doubt what my contact told me: that Kodak has aggressively purchased large volumes of 35mm canisters in an effort to limit their own supply problems.

If you have a copy of "making Kodak Film" http://www.makingkodakfilm.com/ (the author posts here from time to time as "Laser") their are pictures of the Lithographed steel used to make Kodak Cassettes. Kodak no doubt still makes all parts of those in House. Kpdak uses Tape to attach the film to the spool, and so the finishing line presumably has to assemble the Cassettes during the winding operation. (Unlike Ilford and Foma where the film is appched by a hole in the film caught by a hook molded into the spool, and so those cassettes can be fully formed fully formed before the film is loaded.)

If you remember the Arista Premium film, it was finished by Kodak. The cans Kodak uses to pack cassettes into have not changed in years, and so Would imagine that they are still made at the Kodak Plastic parts operations.

 

[MattKing]

FWIW, I think it was last year that the Kodak cassette caps changed from black to unpainted metal, because of a temporary disruption of the supply from the supplier they use for those caps.
I take from that that they are third party sourced now.

 

[cmacd123]

yes, their were a couple of articles that they had troble getting the non tin plated sheet steel to make them for a while. seems that they now once again have the black painted sheet to stamp out the end caps.

too bad their is not a way to ask @laser

 

[brbo]

Kodak no doubt still makes all parts of those in House. Kpdak uses Tape to attach the film to the spool, and so the finishing line presumably has to assemble the Cassettes during the winding operation. (Unlike Ilford and Foma where the film is appched by a hole in the film caught by a hook molded into the spool, and so those cassettes can be fully formed fully formed before the film is loaded.)

Exactly. Fuji also uses "smarter" cassettes (with no need for the tape). Not that it means that fixing film to the core spool in a smarter way means that they are using pre-assembled cassettes (we know Ilford doesn't use cassettes sourced from outside), I just can't seem to think of a reason why (or even how!) would Kodak use tape to fix film to the core spool if they were buying 3rd party cassettes. They obviously have an automated line for all this and they don't think it would warrant a change.

yes, their were a couple of articles that they had troble getting the non tin plated sheet steel to make them for a while. seems that they now once again have the black painted sheet to stamp out the end caps.

too bad their is not a way to ask @laser

We are eagerly waiting for the third part of the Kodak factory tour by this youtuber where I'm pretty sure all of this will be covered. Until then, you can see they are not using pre assembled cassettes here.

 

[Yashica]

Hi Guys,

i paid like 9.49 EUR for each roll of Fujifilm Superia 400 last December 2022, bought it at our german (inside Berlin) Fotoimpex store, which is the biggest Analog Film Store inside germany, EU. Now, it does cost 11 EUR per roll. :-(

Fujifilm Superia 400 135-36

I do think, this is not being an Kodak UltraMax 400 clone. But the newly introduced Fujifilm C200 is simply the old Kodak Gold 200 into disguise. The old Fujifilm C200 was being different.

 

[brbo]

I do think, this is not being an Kodak UltraMax 400 clone.

Nobody said Fujifilm Superia X-tra 400 was made by Kodak. This thread is about Fujifilm 400.

 

[Huss]

B&H are listing a new ‘fujifilm 400‘ product - made in USA, as per fujifilm 200, with Superia 400 Xtra listed on their site as discontinued, although over here theres fresh product still in stock in a few places. At the same time Superia 400 Xtra is back on sale in the Japan market. (Previously discontinued in favour of Premium 400)

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1759047-REG/fujifilm_600022184_400_color_negative_film.html

So this might be short term solution to ongoing supply chain issues, to help backfill supply in the US market or longer term tie up with kodak. Either way its presumably ultramax in the can?

My fresh new Fuji 200 says made in Japan on the box so it is not a Kodak clone.

For a short while the made in USA Fuji 200 was repackaged Kodak.

 

[Huss]

My fresh Fuji 400 also says Made in Japan

 

[Nitroplait]

…I do think, this is not being an Kodak UltraMax 400 clone.

Nobody is saying that. The new Fujifilm linked above likely is.

But the newly introduced Fujifilm C200 is simply the old Kodak Gold 200 into disguise. The old Fujifilm C200 was being different.

There is no new C200. That film is discountinued (for the time being - at least). The Kodak made Fujifilm is differentiated by the lack of “C”.

 

[pentaxuser]

Nobody is saying that. The new Fujifilm linked above likely is.

There is no new C200. That film is discountinued (for the time being - at least). The Kodak made Fujifilm is differentiated by the lack of “C”.

Just to summarise what I think are the conclusions reached
1. Fuji is definitely making its own 400 speed film as per #47
2. Fuji is definitely making its own 200 film as per 47 or is definitely not making its own 200 speed film but has dropped the "C" from the film made by Kodak per #48

So conclusion 2 is yet to be determined and agreed If #48 is right then Fuji in having it stamped "made in Japan" is straying some way from what most of us or perhaps not most of us, would regard as the whole truth. Either "made in Japan" means that Fuji has some manufacturing input in it or Fuji has no input into it and it is blatant lie

Is conclusion 1 generally agree and if not, how do we probe further?

Conclusion 2 contains 2 diametrically opposite conclusions from #47 and #48 How do we ever get to the bottom of this?

pentaxuser

 

[M-88]

FWIW, I think it was last year that the Kodak cassette caps changed from black to unpainted metal, because of a temporary disruption of the supply from the supplier they use for those caps.
I take from that that they are third party sourced now.

First time I saw those silver caps on cassettes was the last time I bought film in a local shop, summer of 2021.