Fuji Hunt X-Press C41 in 1L containers clarification

[Radost]

Hi,
I am about to do my first C41 developing.
I tried to fill up the gaps reading on this forum but I still have a a few questions:

First:

Can I apply the time adjustments meant for the 5 liter mix to the 1 L?
Roughly It seems to be:
1-4 rolls 3'15
5-8 rolls 3'18
9-12 rolls 3'23
13-16 rolls 3'26
17-20 rolls '27

Should I increase the bleach and fix times as well? Should I apply the same rough time adjustment formula?

Second:

Since the timing is so precise do I start the timer when the chemical first hit the film or when all chemical is in the tank.
When do i I poor? After the time ends or while the timer is ending making sure all chemical is out by the end?

How important is it to poor the bleach in right away? I assume the film is still developing after the developer has been poored out from the residual chems on the film.

Is there an agitation scheme without inversions? When I develop B&W it gets a little messy. I rather not make the same mess with C41 chems.

Is 20 rolls per liter pushing it? would 16 rolls be better?

THank You

 

[Rudeofus]

> Can I apply the time adjustments meant for the 5 liter mix to the 1 L?

These should work, however the roll # should be based on 120/5 = 24 rolls to be processed with one liter. This gives you batches with rolls 1-5, 6-10, 11-14, 15-19, 20-24

> Should I increase the bleach and fix times as well

You should definitely increase bleach times as you go through rolls, and I am also not sure, whether you can run 24 rolls of color negative film through a liter of fixer. If it really works, and who am I to doubt Fuji's instructions, then go to at least double the fixer times as you reach roll 20. You can make clip tests with color negative film, and since you can fix color film in broad daylight, you can monitor fixation as you go.

> Since the timing is so precise do I start the timer when the chemical first hit the film or when all chemical is in the tank.

Tetenal's instructions say something like "time is counted between the first time the chemistry touches the film all the way until the next liquid touches the film. If you use a regular film tank, all liquids enter through the funnel and through the pipe piece, so all sections of the film should touch the liquid for the same amount of time, as long as your pouring is consistent. Film is still considered "in the liquid", even if you pour out the liquid, since the emulsion is still soaked.

> How important is it to poor the bleach in right away?

See above

> Is there an agitation scheme without inversions?

You can try to rotate the tank, or don't tilt it all the way. Just make sure, it's consistent, so possible corrections for different agitation style can be made.

> Is 20 rolls per liter pushing it? would 16 rolls be better?

Yep, Tetenal recommends 16 rolls per liter I believe. Also make sure, that you account for the fact, that higher speed film reduces capacity.

 

[Radost]

> Can I apply the time adjustments meant for the 5 liter mix to the 1 L?

These should work, however the roll # should be based on 120/5 = 24 rolls to be processed with one liter. This gives you batches with rolls 1-5, 6-10, 11-14, 15-19, 20-24

> Should I increase the bleach and fix times as well

You should definitely increase bleach times as you go through rolls, and I am also not sure, whether you can run 24 rolls of color negative film through a liter of fixer. If it really works, and who am I to doubt Fuji's instructions, then go to at least double the fixer times as you reach roll 20. You can make clip tests with color negative film, and since you can fix color film in broad daylight, you can monitor fixation as you go.

> Since the timing is so precise do I start the timer when the chemical first hit the film or when all chemical is in the tank.

Tetenal's instructions say something like "time is counted between the first time the chemistry touches the film all the way until the next liquid touches the film. If you use a regular film tank, all liquids enter through the funnel and through the pipe piece, so all sections of the film should touch the liquid for the same amount of time, as long as your pouring is consistent. Film is still considered "in the liquid", even if you pour out the liquid, since the emulsion is still soaked.

> How important is it to poor the bleach in right away?

See above

> Is there an agitation scheme without inversions?

You can try to rotate the tank, or don't tilt it all the way. Just make sure, it's consistent, so possible corrections for different agitation style can be made.

> Is 20 rolls per liter pushing it? would 16 rolls be better?

Yep, Tetenal recommends 16 rolls per liter I believe. Also make sure, that you account for the fact, that higher speed film reduces capacity.

I just developed my first roll yesterday. Negatives look good. Will find out tonight when I scan.
I was making it as I go but still have a few questions:
How important it is to wash the bleach right away? I can really use a break washing after the bleach water is in. Is there a downside to soaking in clean water after the bleach for a few minutes?
Should I wash and dump and refill or just agitate the same water?

As far as fixer goes. I have been very paranoid with my BW and always testing strips and and over fixing for at least 13 minutes. Is the color fixer working the same way as BW?
Can I safely extend the fixing times to double or triple and not have any negative affect?
Honestly even with the lead fixer gear I still overfix my black and white. It has been fool proof as far as fixing goes.
Better safe than sorry.

should I agitate the stabilizer?

 

[mtjade2007]

I am one who will never believe in the huge number of rolls of capacity in the table the OP posted. I have screwed up many precious C-41 films by over use of the developer in the past. I have ended up developing 4 220 rolls with one liter developer., 2 rolls with 500 ml one shot each time and repeat for 2 more rolls. Trying to do more than 4 rolls would only yield problematic colors. Yes, the developer is cheap. The film and the time spent in shooting it is far more expensive.

I pre-rinse my film in the rotary drum twice with 38 degree C water. This makes sure the developer is not cooled by the large area of 2 220 rolls of film and the drum when the developer is poured into the drum.

 

[mshchem]

In my Jobo work I use developer and fixer 1 shot. I replenish bleach. Four rolls of 220 (8 120) per liter sounds like what I get using my Jobo.

 

[Radost]

In my Jobo work I use developer and fixer 1 shot. I replenish bleach. Four rolls of 220 (8 120) per liter sounds like what I get using my Jobo.

This might be a hobo problem since the small amount of chemicals inside the tanks are mixing with a lot of air.
I don’t think Fuji would be lying about the amount of film it can process in 5 L.

 

[Rudeofus]

> How important it is to wash the bleach right away?

That's not urgent at all. Bleach is a process, which works to completion, so if bleach or left over bleach remains in the tank for another five minutes it should not matter.

> Is there a downside to soaking in clean water after the bleach for a few minutes

When it comes to bleach, "washing" is essentially a dilution process. Leaving the first batch of wash water in there won't hurt, but also won't help. You'd gain more, if you did two or three quick water changes right after bleach and then let it soak.

> Is the color fixer working the same way as BW?

Color fixer does the same as B&W fixer, but it faces tough obstacles:

1. There are three times as many layers in color film as in B&W film, so fixer must do more
2. There are special couplers called DIR couplers, which form very strong restrainers during development. These are harder to fix than Silver Bromide.

These are the reasons, why I was surprised to the point of being skeptical of Fuji's capacity claims, especially with regard to fixer.

Can I safely extend the fixing times to double or triple and not have any negative affect?

Yes, fixer (like bleach) works to completion - you can not overfix color film. Since you can fix color film in broad daylight, you can make clip tests or just inspect the roll during fixation, the same "twice clearing time" rule applies.

> should I agitate the stabilizer?

It works faster, if you agitate, but other than that there is no strict need for agitation.

 

[Radost]

> How important it is to wash the bleach right away?

That's not urgent at all. Bleach is a process, which works to completion, so if bleach or left over bleach remains in the tank for another five minutes it should not matter.

> Is there a downside to soaking in clean water after the bleach for a few minutes

When it comes to bleach, "washing" is essentially a dilution process. Leaving the first batch of wash water in there won't hurt, but also won't help. You'd gain more, if you did two or three quick water changes right after bleach and then let it soak.

> Is the color fixer working the same way as BW?

Color fixer does the same as B&W fixer, but it faces tough obstacles:

1. There are three times as many layers in color film as in B&W film, so fixer must do more
2. There are special couplers called DIR couplers, which form very strong restrainers during development. These are harder to fix than Silver Bromide.

These are the reasons, why I was surprised to the point of being skeptical of Fuji's capacity claims, especially with regard to fixer.

Can I safely extend the fixing times to double or triple and not have any negative affect?

Yes, fixer (like bleach) works to completion - you can not overfix color film. Since you can fix color film in broad daylight, you can make clip tests or just inspect the roll during fixation, the same "twice clearing time" rule applies.

> should I agitate the stabilizer?

It works faster, if you agitate, but other than that there is no strict need for agitation.

Thank you for all the great work information.
Unfortunately my first C-41 turned a red cast. A splash of water landed on my timer and stopped it. I possibly could not make up the time in my head counting. Temperature seemed to be fine.

 

[Rudeofus]

AFAIK all these advanced minilab processing machines detect the film you use and adjust colors/contrast automatically. give it a little bit of post processing and you will be fine, I do this all the time.

 

[mshchem]

This might be a hobo problem since the small amount of chemicals inside the tanks are mixing with a lot of air.
I don’t think Fuji would be lying about the amount of film it can process in 5 L.

If you are using a small tank and watch your negatives you can stretch the chemistry. The developer will get dark from the dyes used. If your fixer gets too slow you can add a bit of any rapid fixer. The bleach should last.The Jobo does beat up color chemistry. I use all developers one shot. I used a Paterson tank and a waterbath for decades to develop color film, worked great. I never hit capacity limits because I bought 5L kits.
Good luck, report back on your work.

 

[mshchem]

Thank you for all the great work information.
Unfortunately my first C-41 turned a red cast. A splash of water landed on my timer and stopped it. I possibly could not make up the time in my head counting. Temperature seemed to be fine.
View attachment 298989

If you were printing in a darkroom I would say add yellow and magenta filters. I've never had good luck scanning color negatives, it's difficult. It's probably the scanning.

 

[Radost]

If you were printing in a darkroom I would say add yellow and magenta filters. I've never had good luck scanning color negatives, it's difficult. It's probably the scanning.

My scanning is pretty good. I compared Richard’s noritsu to my Pacific image XAS and while not as good it is not too far.

 

[Radost]

Can I use my Kodak indicator stop bath that I use for BW?

 

[mshchem]

Can I use my Kodak indicator stop bath that I use for BW?

I've used Kodak indicator stop bath for color printing. I use a quick 38°C water wash between developer and bleach. Minilab machines use, developer, bleach, fixer, fixer, stabilizer, stabilizer, stabilizer, dry.
No rinse between bleach or fixer. Your fixer will begin to look like bleach, that's normal.

I don't think indicator stop will hurt but it's another variable that may confuse things.

I would take your negatives to a lab and have some prints made to see if you actually have a color shift.

 

[Radost]

I've used Kodak indicator stop bath for color printing. I use a quick 38°C water wash between developer and bleach. Minilab machines use, developer, bleach, fixer, fixer, stabilizer, stabilizer, stabilizer, dry.
No rinse between bleach or fixer. Your fixer will begin to look like bleach, that's normal.

I don't think indicator stop will hurt but it's another variable that may confuse things.

I would take your negatives to a lab and have some prints made to see if you actually have a color shift.

Found this: Might try to reblix a strip.

 

[mshchem]

The reddish cast would be on the films. To get a red cast, I believe the negatives would have a cyan cast. In any case re-bleaching and re-fixing shouldn't hurt and may help the negatives. I've had to re-fix once when I didn't dilute the fixer correctly.

 

[Radost]

My unopened chemicals were an year old. Stayed unopened til
l a few days ago when I mixed it.
Can somebody share their agitation procedure?

 

[mshchem]

My unopened chemicals were an year old. Stayed unopened til
l a few days ago when I mixed it.
Can somebody share their agitation procedure?

Your chemistry should be fine. I have used unopened Fuji, Kodak and Tetenal that has sat at room temperature for over a year.
For agitation in a small tank, like a Paterson, AP, or stainless steel tank, I always followed the Kodak, 3 inversions with a little rotation, 5 seconds, every 30 seconds. Go gently to not aerate the solution. At first agitate for the first 30 seconds with slow constant inversions. Look at the old Kodak instructions.

Someone here will know exactly where these can be found.
Here's a link scroll down to color chemistry and look at CIS-211

CIS = current information summary = instructions

https://125px.comhttps//125px.com/techdocs/kodak/

 

[Radost]

rebleached washed, fixed and washed. Will check in 2 hours

 

[Radost]

SO far the Cyan colors on the film are still there.
It might have been wrong time? Or temperature?