Fuji freezer film rumour

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Angarian

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I am happy to see that you can still get fresh Fujicolor 100 film in Japan.

It has also been at certain times available in Europe. I bought my inventory at my Fotoimpex shop visits in Berlin (the candy shop for film photographers 😉).
Fujicolor 100 is an excellent film: Very nice natural brillant colors, and concerning detail rendition (resolution, sharpness, fineness of grain) much much better than Kodak ProImage 100, and former Gold 100.
 

Angarian

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I‘m traveling in Japan atm, so here‘s some info about what I see in photo stores here:

Fujicolor 100 is pretty much sold out anywhere (I was in about 15 shops total, mostly Yodobashi, Kitamura and Bic Camera, but also some smaller ones). I found 3 rolls in Kitamura in Naha and 2 in a small Lab in Tokyo (National photo). Price was around 1400-1500 yen and expiration date 06/2027.
There was also a store in the Ginza area which had quite a few in stock but 50% more expensive.

Fuji Premium 400 was also sold out pretty much everywhere, but some Bic camera stores had them, limited to 1 per person. Price was around 2000 yen, and expiration dates in 2027.

One smaller shop hat Fuji Superia 400, forgot to check the expiration date because it was too expensive.

Most stores had Provia and Velvia in 120 in stock (didn‘t usually check 135 - edit: check some of the mobile snaps and price was around 3300-4200 yen for 135. Kodak E100was 6500 yen!), but at around 170‘000 yen for a 5 pack, which is twice what I pay in Germany (when they turn up occasionally).


Fuji 200 and 400 were in stock everywhere, but obviously Kodak emulsions. Portra was also easily available, but expensive.

Thanks for the report!
Concerning film prices in Japan: They have always been higher compared to the US and Europe with most films.
 

ChrisGalway

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........

Most stores had Provia and Velvia in 120 in stock (didn‘t usually check 135 - edit: check some of the mobile snaps and price was around 3300-4200 yen for 135. Kodak E100was 6500 yen!), but at around 170‘000 yen for a 5 pack, which is twice what I pay in Germany (when they turn up occasionally).

......

170,000 yen? Surely not, that's around €1000! (for a pack of 5 120 Provia 100f). Latest price now in Europe seems to be around €90, up 70% on prices 2-3 months ago.

I suspect you meant 17,000 yen. (around €100).
 

dokko

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170,000 yen? Surely not, that's around €1000! (for a pack of 5 120 Provia 100f). Latest price now in Europe seems to be around €90, up 70% on prices 2-3 months ago.

I suspect you meant 17,000 yen. (around €100).

Oops, of course you‘re right! typo there, and I meant around 17‘000.
I bought a pack in europe a month ago for around 50 euro.

8x10“ Provia 100F is 96‘000yen here :surprised:
provia-japan.jpg.jpg
 

ChrisGalway

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Oops, of course you‘re right! typo there, and I meant around 17‘000.
I bought a pack in europe a month ago for around 50 euro.

8x10“ Provia 100F is 96‘000yen here :surprised:
View attachment 377296

I fear the €50-€55 days are over. FotoImpex had some 120 size Provia 100f a couple of weeks ago, sold out in hours, and it was €17.90 a roll (German VAT rate). It's also listed at the same price at a couple of other places, although most sources still quote the lower (old?) price ... but of course, it's not in stock anywhere in Europe by mail order as far as I know.
 

miha

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Thanks @dokko I've ordered a couple of Provia 4x5 boxes today from (one of) the biggest EU vendor(s). I wonder what the expiration date will be.
 

Prest_400

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Thanks for the report!
Concerning film prices in Japan: They have always been higher compared to the US and Europe with most films.
Except pre-2014. Interestingly about the mid 2010s was the inflection point.
Remember the mythological Yodabashi freezers. I do not exactly know what happened or if people discussed how this happened.

I fear the €50-€55 days are over. FotoImpex had some 120 size Provia 100f a couple of weeks ago, sold out in hours, and it was €17.90 a roll (German VAT rate). It's also listed at the same price at a couple of other places, although most sources still quote the lower (old?) price ... but of course, it's not in stock anywhere in Europe by mail order as far as I know.
I was gonna mention that it's probably the timing between batches and pricing. Kodak and the distributing channels adjusted it as new stock was available. I had those prices on Portra last year until the 2024 exp batches ran out. Fuji has simply not caught up.
And assuming inflation has gotten to the component cost, it's reasonable to think that whatever Fuji films
 

abruzzi

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Oops, of course you‘re right! typo there, and I meant around 17‘000.
I bought a pack in europe a month ago for around 50 euro.

8x10“ Provia 100F is 96‘000yen here :surprised:
View attachment 377296

I'm curious about the Velvia 100 in that photo. Is that still being made? I know it has issues in the US due to some ingredient in the emulsion. I would have thought that with one of the larger markets banned, it wouldn't make sense to keep it in production. (I prefer Provia over Velvia 100, but I'm curious.)
 

ant!

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Film-Niko

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I'm curious about the Velvia 100 in that photo. Is that still being made? I know it has issues in the US due to some ingredient in the emulsion. I would have thought that with one of the larger markets banned, it wouldn't make sense to keep it in production.

Yes, Velvia 100 is in production. The US is not such a big market anymore for positive film (that was told to me by Kodak Alaris at Photokina fair when Ektachrome E100 was introduced).
 

Film-Niko

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Except pre-2014. Interestingly about the mid 2010s was the inflection point.
Remember the mythological Yodabashi freezers. I do not exactly know what happened or if people discussed how this happened.

The Yodobashi freezer was impressive, but if I remember right, even at that time when it was 'long and full' the prices have been generally higher compared to Europe and the US.
All reports I have been read from photographers from the US and Europe visiting Japan said variety was huge, but only a few bargains could be made. With the exception of some Fuji amateur CN films.
 

Film-Niko

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However, this news is followed by many commentators saying that Fuji did not restart mass production of film, but instead are only selling film cut from old master rolls stored in huge freezers.
I reckon that this rumor is a long-standing one, but are there any truth to it ?

I remember about until ten years ago on the Agfa-Gevaert homepage was a kind of "behind the scenes" of their film production. Including a report with photos about their storage of film after coating: It was written that storage temperature is +8°C.
And there have been several documentaries on youtube in the last years about factory visits at the film factories of Harman, Eastman Kodak and Polaroid. There also was reported that film after production was stored at positive temperatures in the + 6-8°C range.
At latest Photokina fairs I had asked Kodak, Fujifilm, Ilford Photo, Foma, Polaroid, Adox about that topic: All said film is not kept frozen after coating, but at positive temperatures in the mentioned range above.
And I remember postings here on photrio by film expert Henning Serger, who has visited several film factories, and has seen the cool storage rooms from inside, who confirmed the above mentioned temperature range.

Therefore this whole freezer story is certainly wrong.
All available evidence is against it. And the freezer conspiracy story tellers have never given any proof of their claim.

Personally, I wonder if the global demand of Instax and the lack of supply (apparently sufficient to force Fuji to increase its industrial capacity) would be an ideal culprit. If (and that's a big if) coating lines are shared between Instax and film, Fuji couldn't really handle both at the same time.

They are certainly shared (instax is film). Most probably Fujifilm has also (only) one big film coating machine, just like Kodak, Harman, Agfa, Foma.
And the negative and positive film used in the instax integral film are from a technical point of view film materials like standard color films.
And at the Inovisproject (=Polaroid) factory in Monheim, Germany, also the negative and positive films for Polaroid integral film are coated, but sometimes also the standard films of InovisCoat. All on the same, big (former Agfa) coating machine.
 

koraks

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Most probably Fujifilm has also (only) one big film coating machine, just like Kodak, Harman, Agfa, Foma.
That's quite safe to assume, yes. Of course, the term 'machine' is a bit problematic. It's a factory/production system, consisting of a huge network of machines. Some (many) aspects are redundant, and/or there are parallel tracks. Others are true bottlenecks, such as a drying gallery, which I suspect is also a single track in Japan. However, overall, it's quite safe to assume that for Fuji Japan the volume production line is also a single end-to-end process with very limited to no possibilities of parallel manufacturing.

The Japanese Fuji coating operation is shared capacity between film (Instax + others) and paper manufacture. Given the strong demand for Instax, the logical consequence is that pretty much everything else needs to be squeezed in when they have some time. What the actual uptime of this line is, IDK, neither do I know how long a switchover between production takes, or whether some products require multiple coating runs (for E6, this might be the case, but that's speculation on my behalf). These are of course all critical factors in working out what the total capacity of a line is.

The long and short of it, of course, is that we simply don't know. It's fun to speculate though.
 

Film-Niko

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I've never seen any definite proof. The closest to that is that some Fuji rep did say they had "mothballed" their film production lines at the beginning of the pandemic, and there was an implication that they still hadn't restarted them at the time of the statement (end of 2021). But that was more than 2 years ago, and while it's never been in abundant supply, I've been able to periodically buy Provia and Velvia throughout that time.

+1.

Bellamy Hunt (Japan Camera Hunter) has said multiple times that Fuji is not actually producing film anymore, and he's said it as if it were definite, 100% unquestionable fact. But he hasn't said anything about how he knows that, and he's (understandably, IMO) very bitter towards Fujifilm right now because they basically killed his Fugu film project. So, I take what he's saying with a grain of salt, or at least the certainty with which he says it.

He started his campaign against Fuji long before, when they discontinued Neopan 400. That was his most used film. And he has never forgiven Fuji that they stopped it. But he has also never understood that Fuji's BW market share was tiny, and the production numbers extremely low compared to their color materials. When demand dropped, it was problematic for Fuji to stay in that market with all products.

"So, I take what he's saying with a grain of salt."

A barrel of salt would be better.....😉
He is a person with a very problematic relation to the truth:
In 2016 he introduced under his label the "JCH Street Pan Film". And told his customers the marketing fairy tale that this would be freshly produced film exclusively for him.
But when this repackaged stuff was introduced to the market in 2016, it was indeed old, expired leftover stock of long discontinued Aviphot Pan 400. Last coating run of Aviphot Pan 400 at Agfa in Mortsel was already in 2008.

This expired film rests were already detoriated (probably of bad storage at the source he bought it) and had very high base fog and reduced film speed.
Experienced long-term users of Aviphot Pan 400 (e.g. aerial photographers and traffic surveillance film experts like SPUR in Germany; and film enthusiasts like me and lots of others here on photrio and other film forums, especially in Europe, and facebook photo groups) immediately realized after detailed film tests of Street Pan 400 what this film really was originally.
And those who reported their test results publicly were massively attacked and bashed by Bellamy Hunt for telling the truth.
Because Hunt has told to his customers the marketing fairy tale that the film was "freshly produced" and "exclusively for him", and has "never been on the market". All that nonsense to fool his customers and to hide the scam that it was just old, discontinued, expired film offered at insane high price.
And when this first leftover stock was sold, he just switched to Aviphot Pan 200. Of course without any information to his customers. And with the same ridiculous high price (much higher than all other Aviphot Pan 200 repackaged offerings).

In 2016 he bashed all the film experts, who have been testing and developing films for decades, and who have tested his Street Pan.
And in 2017 he proudly published an article on his blog that in 2017 he developed for the first time in his life a BW film by himself.
Go figure.......would you trust someone who is acting this way?
 

Film-Niko

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That's quite safe to assume, yes. Of course, the term 'machine' is a bit problematic. It's a factory/production system, consisting of a huge network of machines.

Of course. But afaik the coating engineers all talk about "the" machine meaning the coating line. At least I remember that from the documentaries and reports I have seen, and Simon Galley here on photrio. Also in "Making Kodak Film" (outstanding book) the coating line is presented as a big, connected machine with several parts.

Some (many) aspects are redundant, and/or there are parallel tracks. Others are true bottlenecks, such as a drying gallery, which I suspect is also a single track in Japan.

I have seen a short video about the drying gallery of Fujifilm: It is not a straight one like Kodak and Harman, but the film is drying hanging in loopes (like Agfa did in Wolfen, perfect visible in their excellent film museum).


The Japanese Fuji coating operation is shared capacity between film (Instax + others) and paper manufacture.

Do you have the information about paper by your contacts in Tillburg?

Given the strong demand for Instax, the logical consequence is that pretty much everything else needs to be squeezed in when they have some time.

And that is probably the big question: How big is the total capacity of their coating line? Is "squeezing" really needed? We know that Harman, Kodak, Foma all have free coating capacity, because their coating machines were built in the film era, with much much higher demand than today. The coating capacities are huge.
I have doubts that the instax volume is already so high that they have to run the coating in shifts.
 

armadsen

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A week or two ago, backorders for Provia and Velvia that I had at a couple different places were fulfilled, and my local shop got a shipment of Provia 35mm, and Provia and Velvia in 120. My local store has been told by their distributor that Fuji will be shipping slide film out once a quarter for the time being. So, both films are still hard to get, but also still not gone.

Thankfully, my freezer is once again well stocked, and I'm scanning a roll of Provia I shot yesterday as I write this. (And being reminded once again why it's my favorite film.)
 

koraks

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But afaik the coating engineers all talk about "the" machine meaning the coating line.

That's possible, but probably also language-dependent. I've not heard anyone refer to the Dutch paper coating line as "the machine". They call it "the factory" (transliterated) - at least in communication with me.

Do you have the information about paper by your contacts in Tillburg?

Yes.

I have seen a short video about the drying gallery of Fujifilm: It is not a straight one like Kodak and Harman, but the film is drying hanging in loopes

The one in Japan, maybe, yes. The one in Tilburg works on a different principle. It's very space-efficient. Spirals instead of loops. It's very nifty.

I have doubts that the instax volume is already so high that they have to run the coating in shifts.

These are the things that are kind of hard to smash flat into simple statements. I'm sure that in Japan (too) they work in shifts during coating. The question is how much of the time they're actually running coating campaigns and what the percentage of 'downtime' is (which is also the time used for switchovers, cleaning, maintenance, upgrades, repairs, training etc.)
If you start to look into the details, 'capacity' turns out to be a very flexible concept. Do they run a coating line (Fuji or anyone really) that's squeezed out entirely to capacity? I don't think so, no. But I do imagine they're keeping themselves reasonably busy.
 

MattKing

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The coating machines have relatively huge potential capacity. Both Eastman Kodak and, to a lesser extent, Harman use their coating lines to make a lot of non-photographic products as well.
Eastman Kodak has a growing business making the sort of non-photographic "film" that is used for a bunch of other things, including serving as the Estar substrate for some Kodak photographic films. They also coat circuitry!
By the way, the "freezer film" stories most likely relate to some relatively exceptional items - such as master rolls of very low speed films that even in historic times sold very slowly.
 

Film-Niko

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The one in Japan, maybe, yes.

Yes, it has been the one in Japan. It was a short film published by Fuji.

The one in Tilburg works on a different principle. It's very space-efficient. Spirals instead of loops. It's very nifty.

That's very interesting.
The drying in loops is also much more space-efficient compared to the long straight drying tunnels Kodak and Ilford are using. And also more energy-efficient, less air-volume has to be heated, and less surface for heat transmission.

These are the things that are kind of hard to smash flat into simple statements. I'm sure that in Japan (too) they work in shifts during coating.

I should have probably explained it more precisely: We know that film manufacturers with much left-over capacity are running the coating machine for some days in one month. The rest of time no coatings are done.
In these coating days the operation is run in three shifts per day. Mainly for energy-efficiency reasons, the drying tunnels have to be heated up "once". If you do coating only one shift a day, and the drying tunnel is cooling down over night, you have to heat up again the next day: too much energy consumption.
So what I meant was the following: Is Fujifilm running the coating line every day (of course with needed pauses for maintenance, repairs etc.).
And there I have doubts that the instax demand is already so high that that is needed.
 

Film-Niko

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By the way, the "freezer film" stories most likely relate to some relatively exceptional items - such as master rolls of very low speed films that even in historic times sold very slowly.

Yes PCB films (Printed Circuit Board) have also been an Agfa-Gevaert product. I remember a press statement from them about 15 years ago when they said they make about 1 million m² of it a year.

I don't think the freezer film story concerning Fuji relate to niche products like very low speed film:
- very low speed film don't need freezing to keep its properties for a long time, cool storage is totally sufficient
- Fuji don't have such products in their line.
 

MattKing

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The coating machines at Eastman Kodak are quite busy - but only part of the schedule is taken up with photographic film.
 

MattKing

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I don't think the freezer film story concerning Fuji relate to niche products like very low speed film:
- very low speed film don't need freezing to keep its properties for a long time, cool storage is totally sufficient
- Fuji don't have such products in their line.

Understood. I was referring more to the "internet lore" stories in general - films like Panatomic-X near the end of production.
 

Film-Niko

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The coating machines at Eastman Kodak are quite busy - but only part of the schedule is taken up with photographic film.

InovisCoat had the business model to focus on such non-photographic products for their former Agfa coating machine, in their new factory in Monheim. When they started in 2008.
They failed: First insolvency in 2011. The Polaroid owners then bought the factory. InovisCoat had only a production contract left.
Next insolvency for InovisCoat then recently.
 

MattKing

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InovisCoat had the business model to focus on such non-photographic products for their former Agfa coating machine, in their new factory in Monheim. When they started in 2008.
They failed: First insolvency in 2011. The Polaroid owners then bought the factory. InovisCoat had only a production contract left.
Next insolvency for InovisCoat then recently.

I guess it must help to be in the business of making Kodak photographic film and Estar film :smile:.
 

cmacd123

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By Loop drying are you talking about the "festoon" system where the film/paper is hung up like laundry? or something else. I recall seeing a picture of a festoon dryer that the old EFKE folks used.

I few times we have been told that coating paper results in much cleanup before film can again be run.

as far as Kodak's remaining "Machine" the fact it is CALLED "Building 38" is an indication of the size involved. if you can get @laser 's book "Making Kodak Film, I recall he has some details on Building 38
 
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