Fuji Does Not Care about Film

[BrianShaw]

Some people call taking photographs, "Kodaking", but it has been many years since I last heard that.

LOL Last time I heard that was 1924!

 

[AnselMortensen]

And then there's this....

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Like it reads - agree or disagree?
I've contacted a number of higher ups and mid levlers in the past several months through e-mail as well as Linkedin in reguards to the availability of Velvia, frustrations of us users not knowing and all that - and not one response.

Fuji cares about their financial stability.
If their financial stability doesn't coincide with film making that's not their fault because it's a fact that there's no film revival in respect to what were the production volumes back in the day.
It's a matter of life, better be acquainted with it.

 

[DF]

And then there's this....

I'm wondering what year this is from...?

 

[BrianShaw]

19o0's.

https://books.googleusercontent.com/books/content?req=AKW5QafkWh1R-yhjLrsP21zemeD8WvsKOi0YOGPdSC5gL9PfpOstRXl_VVIAZErD46CytZogkBl3aot4z6tneB8V_KgYujMvEP5R9lZQFM3-GfpQRLDfVQOkR_TuBjp63Jf68FXSoo-bGe_Z1JdVPN8Ijf2qmiZuNSBNb2U9No09dF5wEjoCrW4M54NeDdGLftDHNVePDpDaqphEAcDaHkuT3na5kdqml5DUhNdvbz7nQKvwQoU46yrdbtW00C0a5imVwdgwMcWK

 

[mollyc]

The situation with slide films is not good. The last time I saw stock was April, a month earlier I also bought 10 units of both. I haven't seen anywhere since then.
Velvia 100 is available in some places, but only 35mm - for 120 format I haven't seen it anywhere this year.
Interestingly, the expiration date on the films I picked up a month later was about two months older. Either they're still making the film, or they've deep-frozen some quantities, setting an expiration date of a year and a half after release.

Hi, I'm new here, only just discovering the forum a week or so ago.

But Velvia 100 was banned in the US due to EPA (environmental) reasons. We can still get Velvia 50 though (in theory). I am not sure if Fuji is still selling 100 overseas, but they have probably pulled back production if they are. Of course this assumes they are still producing it in someway, and not just working from frozen stock.

 

[AnselMortensen]

Kodakery

 

[ant!]

Hi, I'm new here, only just discovering the forum a week or so ago.

But Velvia 100 was banned in the US due to EPA (environmental) reasons. We can still get Velvia 50 though (in theory). I am not sure if Fuji is still selling 100 overseas, but they have probably pulled back production if they are. Of course this assumes they are still producing it in someway, and not just working from frozen stock.

Some stock of Velvia 100 seems to exist in Canada (listed at other shops as out of stock): https://downtowncamera.com/shop/fuj...b-00163e90e196?variation=2121009&query=velvia

also for Velvia 50: https://studioargentique.ca/product...35mm-36-exposures?_pos=2&_sid=2289caeaa&_ss=r

 

[pentaxuser]

LOL Last time I heard that was 1924!

Wow! Even before Al had a chance to celebrate St. Valentine's Day

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

LOL Last time I heard that was 1924!

Gee I thought that you are about my age, but you must be even older than I though.

 

[MultiFormat Shooter]

In past year, I sent a tecnical question to the "send a message; contact Kodak" facitlity on tehir website and got a detailed technical answer, complete with an example, reply within days. Some corporate managers, Mr. Mooney in this situation, still care about their customers. In the more distant past, such requests were addressed with generic replies that appeared to be from customer service agents who had no knowledge of the question asked or photography in general. But every time I've contacted Kodak in teh past half decade has received some sort of response. For most companies, though, customer service is getting to be luck of the draw...

Sorry, I was talking about Kodak. I was relating that my interaction, with Kodak, was very similar to what @koraks experienced. It was a far-cry from how they treated me years ago, as high school kid.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Kodak's staff is far less than it was during the height of their Jurassic Park days. They are hiring, but mainly need a new generation of technical production workers. In many companies, Customer Service representatives have very little real knowledge of the products involved - it's an entry-level position. ... But I've had very frustrating results calling Fujifilm.USA too.

But a conscientious customer service person should be able to link you up to someone in the know. It wasn't a lot different where I worked. We had incredibly knowledgeable staff on hand; but the people who ran the website or first picked up the phone were short-term types, or young relatives of the boss with no real experience, nor any incentive to learn more.

 

[Angarian]

This is Fujifilm's press release about last year's profits. It covers photography last and doesn't even mention film.

Of course film is mentioned. Instant film is film. Period. Last autumn they have announced that they are investing 20 million $ in their film production.
They are making about double (!!) the money with their analog imaging products compared to their digital imaging products.
During the last 12 months I have bought regularly fresh Provia 100F.

And from Fujifilm I get excellent RA-4 paper at very low prices. But Kodak: Failed completely, no more Kodak paper. Same with chemistry.
Yes I know there is now PSI chemistry with a Kodak label on it. But I am sceptical, because I have made negative experiences concerning quality with PSI products in the past.
And to quote film shops here in my area: Kodak Alaris had stopped the film revival by their greedy price policy. No double-digit growth anymore in film demand. I also know many photographers who have stopped using film because of that, and others who have reduced their consumption significantly.

 

[BrianShaw]

Customer Service representatives have very little real knowledge of the products involved - it's an entry-level position. ... But I've had very frustrating results calling Fujifilm.USA too.

But a conscientious customer service person should be able to link you up to someone in the know.

.... and increasingly that customer service isn't even a person, it's a bot. Bots can be less informed/helful than the entry-level customer-service humans it sometimes seems.

The consciencious ones are a God-send...

 

[DREW WILEY]

It is costing Kodak a lot of money to increase their manufacturing capacity of film, as well as to keep their older equipment running in good order. Look up one of those web flick tours of the plant and see what is involved in the making of film. There's a lot to it, and I seriously doubt they're raising prices just because they're greedy. Costs on all kinds of materials have also gone up dramatically in recent years, and by making as much of their own film base as possible, they're actually going to save some money in the long. But that means more infrastructure investment now.

Smart companies not only plan for the future, but know enough to put a little fat on before risking a winter hibernation. I remember what happened to Forte and Efke, which had great prices, but couldn't keep up with plant maintenance issues, so ended up outright collapsing.

I don't like paying higher film prices either. But that's just the way it is. And the other companies are increasing their prices too. Have you looked at the price of Ilford paper lately? So don't see much sense in bashing Kodak. They have payroll and bills to pay too.

But yeah, with all my own background in mind, I wouldn't mind sitting down with someone in charge Fuji or Kodak and explaining why it would be in their own interest to put knowledgeable people informational customer relations positions - the question is, just how long would it be before they went nuts with all the headache calls and started looking for a different job?

 

[Angarian]

It is costing Kodak a lot of money to increase their manufacturing capacity of film, as well as to keep their older equipment running in good order. Look up one of those web flick tours of the plant and see what is involved in the making of film.

I know all the videos of the Kodak factory tours, the Harman factory tours, the Polaroid and Adox factory tours.
I also have the two excellent books about Kodak film manufacturing from Robert Shanebrook.
So I am very well informed about the topic.

There's a lot to it, and I seriously doubt they're raising prices just because they're greedy.

You are mixing things up. Please read my posting again. I have written about Kodak Alaris' pricing policy, not about Eastman Kodak.

Costs on all kinds of materials have also gone up dramatically in recent years, and by making as much of their own film base as possible, they're actually going to save some money in the long. But that means more infrastructure investment now.

Yes, raw material prices have significantly increased. And new investments in the production capacities are needed. No discussion about that needed, I am all for it.
But that is valid for all film manufacturers, not only for Eastman Kodak.
And fact is, that we've seen the biggest price increases for Kodak films. And that is due to Kodak Alaris pricing policy.
Here in Europe Kodak Alaris has increased their prices to a much, much bigger amount than any other film manufacturer. For example for Tri-X the price was 5€ (!!!) per 35mm film higher than HP5+. TMX and TMY-2 also several Euros more expensive than Delta 100 and 400.
For Ektachrome 100 I have meanwhile to pay 38% (!!) more than for Provia 100F (and Provia is also the better film, offering higher resolution, better sharpness, more shadow detail, record value concerning reciprocity failure, and in 120 the much better film converting).

For Portra I have to pay more than double the price compared to five years ago!
The price increases here for Kodak BW film have been so insane that as a consequence the demand for it crashed. Kodak Alaris had priced itself out of the BW market in Europe. Photographers just switched to the competition (I've got this info from all my film shops and labs, and have seen it with my photographer friends, too). No one can tell me that a Tri-X costs 5€ more in production than a HP5+. It was Alaris pricing policy. Period.
Proven by the fact that after the demand crash Kodak Alaris lowered the price of some films by 30% (!). If you are able to lower the price by that huge margin, you indeed have tried to exploit your customer before.
But even now with the lowered prices Kodak's BW films are 20-30% more expensive than Ilford's here in Europe.

And a general consideration concerning increased raw material costs and needed investments in production machinery:
The most complex and sophisticated film product on the market is integral instant film, so what Fujifilm and Polaroid are producing.
Fujifilm of course has been confronted with rising material costs here as well. And they had to do several rounds of big investments in their instant film production during the last decade to manage the increasing demand.
But nevertheless the prices for their films have been very stable: Depending on the source from which I am buying I pay the same price, or only 5% more than ten years ago!!
So Fuji's instax film has indeed become even much cheaper if we consider inflation!

I remember what happened to Forte and Efke, which had great prices, but couldn't keep up with plant maintenance issues, so ended up outright collapsing.

The reasons for Fotokemika's and Forte's market exit have been different ones, not plant maintenance.

I don't like paying higher film prices either. But that's just the way it is. And the other companies are increasing their prices too.

Yes, but to a much lesser extent.

Have you looked at the price of Ilford paper lately?

Of course, as I do my own optical printing in my darkroom.
You are ignoring one decisive difference:
In film the demand has increased about factor 3-4x in the last decade. So film manufacturers are benefitting from economies of scale again.
But demand for BW paper has not increased, therefore no positive cost reduction effects by improved economies of scale.

So don't see much sense in bashing Kodak.

I don't bash Kodak.
I criticise the pricing policy of Kodak Alaris in Europe. And my critic is based on undeniable facts.

 

[koraks]

People, stick to the topic, please. This thread's about Fuji. The Kodak thing has been discussed elsewhere; feel free to locate one of those threads and append to it. Thanks.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Hi, I'm new here, only just discovering the forum a week or so ago.

But Velvia 100 was banned in the US due to EPA (environmental) reasons. We can still get Velvia 50 though (in theory). I am not sure if Fuji is still selling 100 overseas, but they have probably pulled back production if they are. Of course this assumes they are still producing it in someway, and not just working from frozen stock.

I know they stopped Velvia 50 in 4x5. I've stored two boxes in my freezer and its investment value seems to be doing better than the stock market today.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

People, stick to the topic, please. This thread's about Fuji. The Kodak thing has been discussed elsewhere; feel free to locate one of those threads and append to it. Thanks.

How do you discuss pricing and value of one film without mentioning their competitors? It's all relative.

 

[brbo]

I criticise the pricing policy of Kodak Alaris in Europe. And my critic is based on undeniable facts.

Also undeniable fact, Eastman Kodak produced Fuji 200 and 400 colour negative film in Europe is now priced above Kodak Alaris prices.

Kodak Alaris is greedy (well, they are a business), but Fuji, in addition to not serving (not that they have to) the traditional photography community very well, is even a bit more greedy. If Alaris halted the film renaissance then Fuji killed it dead.

Plus, you should do a price research on negative colour film prices. As much as we hate high prices of Kodak film, Kodak consumer CN films have been the cheapest option for a while now, but at the same time at a level that enabled some other producers to start investing in CN film production. Adox, Harman, Orwo are all priced considerably higher than Kodak consumer CN films and not nearly as good (Adox CM 200 being an exception).

 

[Angarian]

Also undeniable fact, Eastman Kodak produced Fuji 200 and 400 colour negative film in Europe is now priced above Kodak Alaris prices.

As Eastman Kodak is selling it at higher prices to Fujifilm compared to their prices for Alaris, that is not surprising.

Kodak Alaris is greedy (well, they are a business), but Fuji, in addition to not serving (not that they have to) the traditional photography community very well, is even a bit more greedy. If Alaris halted the film renaissance then Fuji killed it dead.

The film revival was started by Fujifilm with instax. And it started in Asia already almost 20 years ago. And since that time instax instant film is the main driving force for the film revival globally. Fujifilm is selling more than 8 million instax cameras every year. That is more than the total Japanese digital camera production.
Compare that to the approximately 3-4 million standard film users we have in total worldwide. It is a niche compared to instant film usage.
It's a big mistake to ignore the big market importance of instant film or have a snobistic attitude towards it.

Plus, you should do a price research on negative colour film prices. As much as we hate high prices of Kodak film, Kodak consumer CN films have been the cheapest option for a while now, but at the same time at a level that enabled some other producers to start investing in CN film production. Adox, Harman, Orwo are all priced considerably higher than Kodak consumer CN films and not nearly as good (Adox CM 200 being an exception).

But the current offerings of Harman, Adox, InovisCoat are not sustainable at that price level:
1. They are only sold in very small quantities.
2. Enthusiasts buy them at the moment to support the efforts of this small(er) producers. But customers will not do that for years. The new producers have to deliver much better quality at significantly lower prices in the mid term.

 

[brbo]

As Eastman Kodak is selling it at higher prices to Fujifilm compared to their prices for Alaris, that is not surprising.

You don't know that and you will never provide any evidence for that. FYI, Fuji did sell their Kodak film at lower prices than Gold/Ultramax at times. So, obviously they can decide to be less horrible to consumers than Alaris. And if they are really feel they are price gouged by EK, they can always decide to like... make some film themselves. I know, a crazy idea for a company that's 100% committed to film...

It's a big mistake to ignore the big market importance of instant film or have a snobistic attitude towards it.

It's a big mistake to drag Instax into threads that only discuss traditional roll/sheet film. It's widely acknowledged that Instax is a big business for Fuji and bigger than traditional film. In this thread this has been clarified already in post #2 in hope to spare us all from the Instax borefest. Yet, here you are...

But the current offerings of Harman, Adox, InovisCoat are not sustainable at that price level:
1. They are only sold in very small quantities.
2. Enthusiasts buy them at the moment to support the efforts of this small(er) producers. But customers will not do that for years. The new producers have to deliver much better quality at significantly lower prices in the mid term.

You don't know that. Maybe all they need to do is to bring something new to the market (and do some sort of marketing, something Fuji and Kodak haven't done in decades). Something that is of solid quality, but not necessarily as advanced as most of the Kodak stuff. Adox basically said that they could sell all their Color Mission 200 in one go if they didn't decide to deliberately span the distribution of this film over a longer period to exploit the full potential of their finite quantities of CM200 in the market where prices were expected to remain at high levels or even go up.

If you think that current "experimental" films price level is unsustainable, than you've basically given up on film and you should stick to the magnificent plastic world of Instax. Smaller producers will not investing a lot of R&D money into new films and then expect to sell them at prices significantly lower than Kodak's (let's face it, nobody will get to Fuji/Kodak quality levels in 3 years). They haven't done that when the prices were unsustainably low and will not do it today.

 

[koraks]

Looks like this thread is turning nasty and not righting itself. I'll lock it for now; we may re-open it later.