Fuji and the earthquake

[Poisson Du Jour]

And on which planet did that all happen...?

 

[Sirius Glass]

I really can't believe this thread. You might think less about yourselves and more about donating a few $ to the Red Cross or Habitat for Humanity Japan.

(http://www.habitatjp.org/WH/hfhj_e.html).

CGW, you over did it with this comment. Time to get off the soap box. Others built the case for donating in a much better way on other threads.

Steve

 

[2F/2F]

...pure luck made it to a miner incident.

cheers

Ah, yes! Mining accidents must also be included!

Sorry, I am just joking, and I could not resist.

But Three Mile Island was definitely not prevented from being worse by "pure luck." Nor was it a minor accident.

But even thought the accident was very serious, it did not cause widespread damage. You basically need a Chernobyl to do that: Breach of the reactor vessel and explosion causing the fuel and other core material to go flying into the air. And trust me, the people operating Chernobyl that night certainly did just about everything they possibly could have to make sure that that accident happened...which is pretty much the only way to have an accident that bad.

The fact is that no form of steam plant is truly 100 percent safe. Properly designed, built, maintained, and operated nuclear plants, however, are pretty much the least bad of all the options IMHO. I'd rather have a nuclear plant in my back yard than a conventional one.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kevin;

Kodak could ramp up production with no problem, provided the nuclear fallout does not spread. And, I know that this is a very unlikely problem and probably very minor as well, but even a tiny amount affects film. Remember that I said nuclear tests in the Pacific had an effect on film made in Rochester!

PE

 

[Kevin Kehler]

PE, I completely believe you but find it amazing at the same time that they have that much excess capacity if necessary. While I don't wish harm to Sony or Canon's chip factories, it's good to know if that if the global "imaging" user had to go back to film for several years, it could be done.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kevin;

In another thread, I mention that Kodak production of MP products is down due to the digital revolution in Hollywood. Due to the dip in production demand, there is some free time in the Kodak MP production schedule that could be easily taken up.

Also, due to declines in the current world market, Kodak analog production is down enough that production could easily be increased to take up any potential demand.

PE

 

[2F/2F]

It makes sense to me that a crap-ton of nuclear bomb tests over a relatively short time period would affect radiation readings in Rochester. The radiation fallout from a bomb is of much greater quantity, of higher energy, is propelled with much greater force, and travels much higher and much farther (though does not last for as long a time as the fallout from nuke power plant disasters). Do you know how many bombs we and France lit off there? It's insane. No wonder we have a world full of mutant-people!

Out of curiosity, what radiation types and levels did you detect in Rochester, and how and how much did they affect the Kodak films?

 

[Photo Engineer]

IDK what was detected here chemically, but I know that it showed up as tiny black specks and then it only showed up after a few months. It took time for cumulative exposure to affect the films. The 120 films were heavily affected to my knowledge because the paper was "infected".

PE

 

[2F/2F]

Interesting. Do you know where the paper came from?

Personally, I would say that using a stockpile of Fuji film in one's freezer for years would result in more radiation-related issues from run-of-the-mill radiation than buying fresh Fuji film from Japan made in the aftermath of this accident. But just a guess, based on the relatively low levels being released in Japan. Only time will tell for sure. In the meantime, there are always Kodak and Ilford.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Tonights news reports that sensors in Seattle and Vancouver have detected an increase in radiation. Also, some detectors in northern US have detected radiation as well.

PE

 

[willrea]

Tonights news reports that sensors in Seattle and Vancouver have detected an increase in radiation. Also, some detectors in northern US have detected radiation as well.

PE

I'll let you know when I develop super powers

 

[2F/2F]

Yes, it is to be expected. But what are the levels? Not enough to do anything to anyone. Even in the communities surrounding "ground zero," this is not the case. People would do better by simply wearing sunscreen every day than by worrying about this. This seems like it is really just stoking a bunch of fear that is already irrationally out of hand. And not one bit of data – not a single number – yet, from a former scientist! It is an interesting topic, but I think looking at some data would put it in perspective.

Besides, those Canucks and Pac. NWers need a sun tan anyhow!

 

[Photo Engineer]

2F;

The levels from the nuclear tests in the Pacific were too low to affect anyone here, but they affected Kodak films and changed the way the buildings making emulsions and coatings were built and protected. So what may be low to you is high to film.

PE

 

[2F/2F]

Of course. I understand that. But before telling people to hoard film, one should take a look at the basics:

What levels and types affect film production negatively?

Are those levels present, or are they expected to be present, where Fuji manufactures their film?

Without knowing those two things, why even make a statement on the issue?

This passage is particularly frustrating:

"The bottom line is this. I have been told that Fuji film and paper users should stock up on film as a "just in case" provision to tide them through to the summer months. This is just a suggestion from sources. We know nothing for sure, but we do want to help our APUG friends."

Is it really the bottom line?

You have been told. Ok, but a source and credentials?

You do in the next sentence: "sources." Not a very good source. Certainly not a publishable one if you are trying to make a point.

Then "we know nothing for sure." Sounds like a reason not to make the post.

So, your post informs us of nothing concrete (or even close to it), yet encourages us to stockpile film.

Fuji films may be affected by radiation, and will almost certainly be affected by the earthquake. It is a topic of concern for Fuji users. But this was just a very premature post IMHO.

So, since this thread is really just about saying a bunch of stuff anyhow, I will just make my own guess: Nobody needs to panic.

 

[sandholm]

Ah, yes! Mining accidents must also be included!

Sorry, I am just joking, and I could not resist.

spell "check"....

But Three Mile Island was definitely not prevented from being worse by "pure luck." Nor was it a minor accident.

It was pure luck, if that core had hit 5000 degrees (which was very close, it reached around 4700) it would have had a full meltdown. If they hadnt got the phone call telling them to dump 400 gallons of water into the reactor it would have reached 5000 degrees (in probably minutes). If the hydrogen release had been a bit higher then it could have reached the critical mixture (ok depend on oxygen levels).

Actually there were two groups who argued if it would blow or not, and none had real scientific evidence, it was a coin flipp. I call this pure luck, because no one knew what was going on.

(before I got my phd in computer science I was a physics, but working with plasma)

But even thought the accident was very serious, it did not cause widespread damage. You basically need a Chernobyl to do that: Breach of the reactor vessel and explosion causing the fuel and other core material to go flying into the air. And trust me, the people operating Chernobyl that night certainly did just about everything they possibly could have to make sure that that accident happened...which is pretty much the only way to have an accident that bad.

At three mils iland the OPERATOR turned OFF the automatic water pumps, which was pumping water into the reactor because a valve did not close which made the water level to sink inside the reactor tank. If the operator would not have done this no incident would have happen (because the automatic functions did the right thing, the operators screwed it up, read any report about the incident, or any TV documentary)

The fact is that no form of steam plant is truly 100 percent safe. Properly designed, built, maintained, and operated nuclear plants, however, are pretty much the least bad of all the options IMHO. I'd rather have a nuclear plant in my back yard than a conventional one.

Same her, would rather have a nuclear plant close to me, UNTILL it blow up

cheers

 

[Dinesh]

I really can't believe this thread. You might think less about yourselves and more about donating a few $ to the Red Cross or Habitat for Humanity Japan.

(http://www.habitatjp.org/WH/hfhj_e.html).

Priceless! Why don't you get off your wallet and help Sean out by becoming a subscriber?

 

[sandholm]

Yes, it is to be expected. But what are the levels? Not enough to do anything to anyone. Even in the communities surrounding "ground zero," this is not the case.

No mSv values has been release except the values are 1600 times higher then normal, and Japan has earlier reported that the normal value for them are 10.27 mSv/24h, so the 1600x increase should give them a value around 16500 mSs/24h. Chernobyl was around 10,000–300,000 mSv/hr, so its far from Chernobyl. If you worked at a nuclear plant you know that most of them say that you should not be exposed to more then 20 mSv for a whole year, and current/earlier (dont know now) its around 640 mSv/hr at "ground zero", and I would not call this "nothing", that IS really bad, just for reference (and this is a single dose, not over 1hr)

100 mSv - great risk for birth defects
3-4 Sv - 50% chans to die
10 Sv - 100% chans to die, aka DEAD

Here is a live geiger counter in Tokyo http://www.ustream.tv/channel/7517126
(a geiger measurement alone can not be translated to mSv, because to do that you have to know the type of radiation and how deadly it is)

cheers

 

[2F/2F]

spell "check"....

It was pure luck, if that core had hit 5000 degrees (which was very close, it reached around 4700) it would have had a full meltdown. If they hadnt got the phone call telling them to dump 400 gallons of water into the reactor it would have reached 5000 degrees (in probably minutes). If the hydrogen release had been a bit higher then it could have reached the critical mixture (ok depend on oxygen levels).

Actually there were two groups who argued if it would blow or not, and none had real scientific evidence, it was a coin flipp. I call this pure luck, because no one knew what was going on.

(before I got my phd in computer science I was a physics, but working with plasma)


At three mils iland the OPERATOR turned OFF the automatic water pumps, which was pumping water into the reactor because a valve did not close which made the water level to sink inside the reactor tank. If the operator would not have done this no incident would have happen (because the automatic functions did the right thing, the operators screwed it up, read any report about the incident, or any TV documentary)

Same her, would rather have a nuclear plant close to me, UNTILL it blow up

cheers

Hi, I am aware of the details of the casualty at TMI, in wretched detail. I had to learn all about it at one point when learning to work on the plants. My point was simply that even with the extreme operator error there, damage to humans was minimal, considering the severity of the event, and that it was nowhere near the level of reckless plant operation that occurred at Chernobyl. A cooling malfunction handled incorrectly is far less unbelieveable and reckless than placing the plant in a configuration like was done at Chernobyl prior to the accident. They manually set the thing up to be resting on a hair trigger, and in a way that was completely irrecoverable my any means once the trigger was pressed.

My point was not that TMI was not serious or was not caused primarily by humans not doing their jobs properly. It was just that it takes some SERIOUS negligence, coupled with a less-than-smart plant design to cause an accident as catastrophic as Chernobyl.

Someone realizing what was going on and taking steps to fix the situation at TMI is not "pure luck." That is exactly what plant workers are supposed to do, all the time. That is the results of someone, somewhere, finally doing their job. Pure luck would have been something unexpected, say an electrical fluke, that had turned the M/ECPs back on without operator action, for instance.

Could have been much worse? Absolutely. But it was not saved from being so by luck...and definitely not "pure" luck.

 

[2F/2F]

640 mSv/hr in the surrounding communities? AFAIK, 400 was the highest experienced by humans so far, and that was at the plant itself.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Sandholm is correct about 3 mile Island and the mistakes made and the luck that saved us from a major meltdown. He is also quoting figures that at present are not good for film. That is about all I can say. Ungood for film! People will not notice it any more than they notice an X-Ray, but the film might look like someone peppered it with black dots.

As for my sources, they are impeccable, I assure you! After all, even if I was quoting myself, well, BTDT as they say, so I know what nuclear particles (meaning radioactive dust in this case) can do to an emulsion. When you consider that 1 drop of Mercury can paralyze Kodak if spilled in one of the buildings, think what a dust cloud could do to them or Fuji, particularly Fuji.

Actually, just as in the car industry and other areas of production relying on Japanese industry, we may see an interruption in the flow of Fuji products for one quarter or perhaps more. It depends too much on imponderables. If it is really bad, and Kodak cannot get their nuclear protection system going again, it may even impact Kodak. As I said, IDK anything for sure. This was a warning of a potential problem. Ignore it, mock it or whatever, but if it "gets you" I get the last laugh!

PE

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

In a related development a few minutes ago, I learnt from one of my Canon suppliers this morning (Australian time) that the plant responsible for manufacture of Canon's L-series optics was "flattened" in Japan and prices "will be rising sharply" on the high-end lenses. He did not mention which factory; Canon has a few handling everything from camera bodies to lens coatings. Wondering now about Nikon, Pentax, others... Fuji...

I donated $150 to the Red Cross in the New Zealand disaster, and last weekend $50 for the Japan quake. Maybe we should make a donation to Canon, Fuji et al.

 

[CGW]

Check the Nikon Japan news.

 

[2F/2F]

Sandholm is correct about 3 mile Island and the mistakes made and the luck that saved us from a major meltdown. He is also quoting figures that at present are not good for film. That is about all I can say. Ungood for film! People will not notice it any more than they notice an X-Ray, but the film might look like someone peppered it with black dots.

As for my sources, they are impeccable, I assure you! After all, even if I was quoting myself, well, BTDT as they say, so I know what nuclear particles (meaning radioactive dust in this case) can do to an emulsion. When you consider that 1 drop of Mercury can paralyze Kodak if spilled in one of the buildings, think what a dust cloud could do to them or Fuji, particularly Fuji.

Actually, just as in the car industry and other areas of production relying on Japanese industry, we may see an interruption in the flow of Fuji products for one quarter or perhaps more. It depends too much on imponderables. If it is really bad, and Kodak cannot get their nuclear protection system going again, it may even impact Kodak. As I said, IDK anything for sure. This was a warning of a potential problem. Ignore it, mock it or whatever, but if it "gets you" I get the last laugh!

PE

Sandholm and I were both correct about the mistakes made at TMI, PE. To mention him alone here implies that I was not correct.

But it is not correct that "pure luck" saved it from being even more disastrous. That is crazy; you two are defending a ridiculous overstatement, and categorizing the operators as a group of 100% screwups, who had nothing to do with preventing this from becoming a worse accident. The truth of the matter is that a bunch of people scrambling to figure out what the hell to do finally arrived at the right answer. That is not luck. Luck would have been choosing response steps "purely" (to use Sandholm's term) at random from a wide possibility of options, and having the chosen step turn out by chance to be the correct step. There wasn't any chance involved in a group of operators finally figuring out what was going on and how to stop it. This was not "pure luck." Do you really believe that some divine thing such as CHANCE saved that reactor from totally melting down and probably busting open?

Are you here to post information that stirs people up and gets the last laugh? That is a funny way around responding to contrary points, especially from someone who uses the fact that he used to be a scientist in order to defend his arguments so often. Ignore my points if you don't want to respond to them. You have no duty to answer anyone. But at least accept that they are reasonable points, and don't make fun simply because I am not 100% on the same page as you.

However well-intentioned your post was – and I do think that it was, PE, don't get me wrong! – all you had to do was wait for real information with a real, nameable source. If your sources are impeccable, then name them. And tell us what they said. "Hi, folks. Fujifilm Japan reporting here. Radiation is going to affect our film production. We are receiving this much, which is enough to affect our film negatively," would be what they would have need to have said to make this a responsible and timely post on your part. As of now, it is an alarmist and fear-stirring post without cause.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Erm... PE, what are "imponderables"??

 

[pentaxuser]

Well we are a mile off the original thread but to keep it that way, I wonder how the situation in Japan compares to the leak at Sellafield in the U.K. a number of years ago. Strangely the U.K. media hasn't made any comparison. Maybe if it did it wouldn't help dramatise the situation and the media abhor lack of drama.

Anyway Harman at Mobberley is less than 200 miles from Sellafield and to the best of my knowledge doesn't have any safeguard for its film from radiation. If it did I suspect it would have mentioned it as it would make an interesting talking point on any tour.

Maybe B&W film is less affected?

Of course in an island as small as the U.K. a leak big enough to affect film might be the least of our worries.

pentaxuser