Fujchrome product suffix F ?

Leigh B · Nov 15, 2016

A while back Fuji added a suffix F to their chromes, e.g. Provia 100 became Provia 100F.

Can anyone explain what this means? TIA.

- Leigh

GarageBoy · Nov 16, 2016

They reformulated them for finer grain and other improvements - 100 and 100F are different films -
400 came in 400, superseded by 400F and then 400X

DREW WILEY · Nov 16, 2016

Similar color response and speed, but with the finer-grained new "F" product some of the flexibility in "pull" development was given up. There always
seems to be some kind of trade-off. I actually preferred the older product; but since I mainly shot it in 8x10, a tiny bit more fineness of grain wasn't
a priority for me personally.

TSSPro · Nov 16, 2016

The tonal changes between Velvia 100 and 100F seemed apparent, but I, by no means, performed any actual testing to evaluate them. I generally went with the non-f versions of the film in my own work unless it was the 400x, and the biggest complaint that I always heard between the F and non-F version was just the color change in the Velvia F and non-F. Aside: As far as I can recall there was a change in Velvia formulation, then another change resulting in the F designator

DREW WILEY · Nov 16, 2016

Velvia is a bit more complicated because they basically offered three different products alongside each other for awhile, while Provia and Astia were simple cases of evolutionary replacement. I greatly preferred Astia 100F because they coated in on stable polyester sheets rather than dimensionally
unstable acetate. Same for Velvia 100F. But Provia was never offered in polyester, while Kodak E100G was. So that brief era was the peak of evolution for chrome sheet films, just before an asteroid caused a mass extinction event to not only our selection of chromes, but direct positive
Cibachrome printing material too.

flavio81 · Nov 16, 2016

Leigh B said:
A while back Fuji added a suffix F to their chromes, e.g. Provia 100 became Provia 100F.

Can anyone explain what this means? TIA.

- Leigh

F stands for Far more expensive. All Fujifilms as of 2016 have received the "F" treatment.

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 16, 2016

Velvia 100F was the most difficult of any of Fujichrome's emulsions to both shoot with and print from. Remaining 3 boxes in 35mm were thrown out 5 years ago. Shooting with it was not an option given its ascerbic palette. The yellow and red channels were so whacked out that comparisons with the "gold standard" of Velvia 50 caused many photographers to write to Fujifilm (I was one of them) and ask what is going on; I really wish people here could see an IC print of a 100F vs the beauty of an RVP 50 print and note the inescapable starkness. True, some photographers could put 100F to some use by expoloiting the Disney-themed mustard-yellow in "golden hour" photography, but even that could be asking for trouble; I did do just that in the outback in '011 and cursed and cussed like there would be no tomorrow. Printed to Ilfochrome Classic, the ghastly mustard yellows and beetroot reds was a joke -- no, it wasn't IC causing the problems: the printer himself toiling away with the channels loathed the stuff, always harking back philosophically to his reasoning of strongly recommending Kodachrome over anything else (the reasoning is entirely valid in a technical printing sense, but out of context for this thread). And then Fujifilm culled the bloody thing. Note the generally muted response to that action!

Provia 100F ('F' for forte in my book!) has none of the foregoing misery to its name and is a delightful film to work with alongside RVP50.

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 16, 2016

flavio81 said:
F stands for Far more expensive. All Fujifilms as of 2016 have received the "F" treatment.

It's true the price is going up Flavio. At a time when a lot of other stuff is coming down in price

DREW WILEY · Nov 16, 2016

Provia 100F was utter misery to print on Ciba, just like the previous generations of Provia, simply because they never switched over from that damn unstable acetate base. Astia 100F was a dream film. Velvia 100F - well... didn't find much use for it despite the polyester base. Just not versatile.

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 16, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
Provia 100F was utter misery to print on Ciba,

Drew, I am sorry you have observed this, and it puzzles me a little (the acetate base?). Granted, not much of my own work was printed from RDPIII to IC (the last job was 6 years ago), and I more commonly print it now (from pinhole and 6x6 work) via the Stinkjet (is that your endearing term, or that of Sirius??) method. I haven't got any ready reference of other Australian photographers printing from RDPIII to Ilfochrome. Russian lensman Oleg Novekov commonly printed his majority RDPIII work to Ilfochrome in Europe.

I never printed from Astia. Astia though was the film I used on a whip around Norfolk Island in the glittering South Pacific in 1994. The slides are surprisingly very stable (and oh so green -- typical of Norfolk!) more than two decades later, though I don't see them often (who'd want to see pics of cow pats, roadkill, grumpy Islanders and general pics of how residents of a tax-free haven live and behave??). Maybe it's time I re-visited Norfolk Island now that Australia has re-asserted authority over the wayward spot of paradise. They were none too please about it, but they now pay tax and get Medicare!

flavio81 · Nov 16, 2016

Poisson Du Jour said:
Drew, I am sorry you have observed this, and it puzzles me a little (the acetate base?). Granted, not much of my own work was printed from RDPIII to IC (the last job was 6 years ago), and I more commonly print it now (from pinhole and 6x6 work) via the Stinkjet (is that your endearing term, or that of Sirius??) method. I haven't got any ready reference of other Australian photographers printing from RDPIII to Ilfochrome. Russian lensman Oleg Novekov commonly printed his majority RDPIII work to Ilfochrome in Europe.

I never printed from Astia. Astia though was the film I used on a whip around Norfolk Island in the glittering South Pacific in 1994. The slides are surprisingly very stable (and oh so green -- typical of Norfolk!) more than two decades later, though I don't see them often (who'd want to see pics of cow pats, roadkill, grumpy Islanders and general pics of how residents of a tax-free haven live and behave??). Maybe it's time I re-visited Norfolk Island now that Australia has re-asserted authority over the wayward spot of paradise. They were none too please about it, but they now pay tax and get Medicare!

A bit off-topic, but how about prints from internegatives? Did you see any good prints done that way?

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 16, 2016

flavio81 said:
A bit off-topic, but how about prints from internegatives? Did you see any good prints done that way?

Yes, definitely, this is the way all of my and most others' Ilfochrome Classic prints were made, including from MF and LF, "internegs" or "masks" were always made in my case for production of prints in the Ilfochrome Classic process (they were additional cost, rising in cost with size of film); see my pic of one of these masks (there was a url link here which no longer exists) in the Ilfochrome Classic vs RA4 print... thread.

DREW WILEY · Nov 16, 2016

Once again, the question is apparently about COLOR internegatives, not silver masks. Hard to say. I've got a stack of very precisely made 8x10 contact internegs on Portra 160 film, made from various chrome films (mainly 8x10 Provia and E100G) which I just haven't had a chance to RA4 print yet. These were done the hard way, meaning the right way, which did include a fair amount of silver masking both for contrast control and hue reproduction. This is my second round. I did a few preliminary ones, including an 8x10 Velvia shot, multiple masks, then a master interpositive on
Astia 100F intended for Ciba (which worked superbly), but then itself employed to generate a Porta internegative, then onto a 30x40 inch Crystal Archive print. A lot of steps; merely OK results, suitable "commercial" quality, but not really what I had in mind. So my tentative opinion at this point:
Velvia is not the best original for making color internegs. It's not just a contrast problem, but about getting dyes to match. And I seriously doubt anyone is going to make an end-run to my level of equipment, which included a very precise additive light source and exceptionally accurate instrumentation. If you really aren't nitpicky about quality, you could simply use a slide copy gadget and flash for contrast control. That's about all
most commercial labs did back in the heyday of ITN film itself, and their results generally stunk.

flavio81 · Nov 16, 2016

Thanks Drew, that's what i wanted to ask about: Color (C41) internegatives. Poisson, i will also take a look at your masking examples since i've always wanted to know how to apply masking on those processes.

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 16, 2016

Flavio,
I found an IC print produced long ago (2004?) with a mask. And the mask is a give-away: it is a B&W copy (contrast adjusted) of the original transparency. Pic attached, plus photo of original IC proof (the final was framed and is on the wall above me). I can assure you the IC print doesn't look so monstrously mushy as shown here!

DREW WILEY · Nov 17, 2016

The third obvious method would be to make black and white tricolor separation negatives from your chrome original, then print these sequentially in
register onto your RA4 print material. It's a lot of work compared to simply scanning and laser or inkjet output, but might constitute a fun interesting
project for darkroom enthusiasts. And I do in fact have separation negs for several 8x10 chromes on hand to try this, and the right kind of registration gear, but once again, no time yet. I've been pushing a lot of outdoor projects on my property before the rains arrive, and hope for a minor break before starting my indoor house remodeling. They've got a soaker storm forecast this weekend, so I'll sneak back into the lab for some black and white printing, but color work will have to wait a few more months at least. But tricolor b&w negs onto Fuji RA4 paper were commercially done briefly
at one time. I still have a sample print. They used scanning and a film recorder to generate full-sized contact negs onto an Agfa proofing film. The
venture was a financial bellyflop. They crossed the line into digital at exactly the wrong point in history, just before far more cost effective color printing methods starting arriving. Of course, separation negs are also used for "sandwich" color process such as tricolor carbon and dye transfer.
All of this can either be hell or fun, depending on your attitude toward darkroom work and level of patience. For me, it's relaxing.

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 17, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
then print these sequentially in
register onto your RA4 print material

Except that print up there I posted is an Ilfochrome Classic, not RA4 (RA4, as we know looks soooo much better, but that's a whole other story... )
If my Master Printer was around I would love to pick over his brain as to what was being done with these myriad masks, especially the how-to (you may know, but I do not, though I'm sure long ago they would have shown me the steps of mask construction!). Unfortunately Peter vanished abrubtly after the lab closed in '10 and nowt has been known or seen of him since (BTW he is a Canadian, trained in and worked in print production for several years before Australia, probably mid-1980s).

In the final month of an extremely wet, cool and generally abnormal Spring here (global cooling); an abrubt upswing yesterday with steamy heat, then a cold front this am has brought cloud, cool and calm conditions before Central Australian desert heat is funnelled down over the weekend and Monday. That's my cue to get going to pack the tent and caboodle for a project at the beach!

Keep cosy!

DREW WILEY · Nov 17, 2016

The whole problem with old masks or separations is that they're apt to be worthless if either they or the original film was acetate. It shrinks. You either have to get your whole workflow done relatively quickly during a season of stable humidity, or wait a decade or two until the film has somewhat stabilized, and hope. Of course, nearly all 120 film is acetate. Sheet films differ. Most black and white sheet films are indeed polyester,
and therefore dimensionally stable, but the original chrome might not be. I'd generally make most of my masks around this time of year, since it's
traditionally one of our few dry and stable months, with damp coastal fog the rest of the time. Not this year or the previous. Things are getting wacky.

DREW WILEY · Nov 17, 2016

... and sorry your Ciba printer had to be kicked out of the country (an entire continent); but he deserved to be banished if he couldn't make a Ciba print that looked ten times better than anything RA4 !

Fujchrome product suffix F ?

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