Frilling while Carbon printing

Discussion in 'Hand Coated Wet Prints' started by Bruce, Jan 2, 2017.

  1. Bruce

    Bruce Subscriber

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Location:
    Centerville
    Shooter:
    35mm
    How do you handle Frilling when Carbon printing?

    Sometimes this happens and other times it does not I don't understand why this happens.

    Any advise would be appreciated.

    Thanks
     
  2. pschwart

    pschwart Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    An insufficiently sized support is almost always the culprit. More details would be required to diagnose your particular issue. A simple test is to remove your sizing regimen from the equation by using a support that requires no additional sizing. Transfers to RC paper are consistently reliable, so you can try this using the identical workflow and report back.

     
  3. OP
    OP
    Bruce

    Bruce Subscriber

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Location:
    Centerville
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Hi Phillip

    Thanks for your reply.

    The Frilling happens randomly. Sometimes I get it and other times I dont. This happens even when using the same support paper.

    It is sometimes on a corner of the print but once in a while along an edge.
     
  4. pschwart

    pschwart Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The way I think about this: frilling is lifting at the edges. Then there is shedding, which is when pieces of the image float off the support. If there is frilling, it is often where deep shadows meet the paper white of the support, so tonal distribution makes some images more susceptible to frilling. Masking the negative to provide a safe edge is usually helpful, or you can print a black border around the image if you are making digital negatives. Some sizings are more delicate than others making for risky transfers. For example, gelatin can require a lot of experience to work reliably, while albumen over gelatin makes for simple and reliable transfers. Remove sizing from the equation: try a transfer onto an RC or fiber photo paper support, make sure to soak the tissue and support for at least 60 seconds before mating, and don't develop too hot.
     
  5. OP
    OP
    Bruce

    Bruce Subscriber

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Location:
    Centerville
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Philip

    Thanks for the ideas.

    My Frilling is happening when I have a black area in the image that meets the paper white. This happens "SOMETIMES" even when I use a Rubilith safe edge. I will try your idea of a black border around the digital neg edge.
     
  6. pschwart

    pschwart Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    What is your final support, and how is it sized?
    Soak the tissue and support for at least 60 seconds before mating. Tap water 65-70 F is fine (not too cold).
    Don't strip the tissue from the support until gelatin is melted and visibly oozing from all sides. 4-5 minutes generally works for me, but this will depend
    on support, sizing, tissue thickness, water temp ...
    Don't agitate vigorously when developing. I let print develop face down and flip gently every minute or two.
     
  7. OP
    OP
    Bruce

    Bruce Subscriber

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Location:
    Centerville
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Philip

    Currently, since I am just learning this carbon process, I am using ADOX as my final support. I use distilled water at 65-70 for the mating step. In the final separation step, after about 4 -5 minutes I make sure there is a lot of oozing of the gelatin before I even think of pulling the sandwich apart. Agitation, after separation is gently done.
     
  8. pschwart

    pschwart Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    - distilled water: no problem but not required. Water straight from the tap is fine unless you have very alkaline water
    - Adox: fiber? RC? Uncoated baryta?
    - what is your base exposure?
    - Can you create a step tablet with a full range of tones? Do you know what your dmax is (this is where a densitometer is helpful)
    - how long are you mating tissue and support before development?
    - what is the initial temp of your developing bath?
    - have you tried printing an image with a different tonal distribution?
     
  9. pschwart

    pschwart Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Can you could upload an image of one of your frilled prints?
     
  10. OP
    OP
    Bruce

    Bruce Subscriber

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Location:
    Centerville
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Philip

    Here is some info on my carbon process.

    Support paper -Adox Art Baryta paper- its a substitute for fixed out photo paper.

    Base exposure about 9 minutes in my homemade UV box. I did make a step wedge print - I use QTR for my digital negs and a curve that Sandy King gave out at the Photo Formulary workshop. . I do have a full range of tones.

    I mate the support paper/exposed tissue sandwich after about 5 minutes - one for the ADOX support paper and 4 for the exposed tissue. Distilled water at 65F.

    Initial temp of developing bath is 115F.

    I have posted a print that shows Frilling.

    Some prints experience Frilling while others dont.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.


    Thanks for your help
     
  11. pschwart

    pschwart Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Bruce
    The Adox is going to cause serious problem. I have tested that paper -- it's uncoated and the baryta layer is seriously compromised in hot water, and 115 F at the upper end for carbon developing, too. That paper should not be considered a substitute for photo paper. Try printing on RC or fiber photo paper. You could certainly size the Adox with gelatin, or even better, gelatin and albumen, but I wouldn't recommend this for someone just getting started with carbon.
     
  12. OP
    OP
    Bruce

    Bruce Subscriber

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Location:
    Centerville
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Philip

    Thanks for the input.

    It is interesting since I used ADOX at the workshop I attended and did not have much frilling.

    Anyway - I will switch to fixed out photo paper. Do you have any recommendations?

    What is your recommended process for fixing out photo paper. One or two fixer baths and followed by a water wash for how long?
     
  13. pschwart

    pschwart Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Was that one of Sandy's workshops? I'd be very surprised if he was using that uncoated baryta. You might want to confirm with him exactly what was used. Any RC paper, including Adox, would be a good choice for learning the basics. RC paper is also handy for triaging problems, printing step wedges, for optimizing relief in some images. and makes a fine base for carbon tissue. You can print on both sides of RC photo paper, and you can even wash off an image and reuse the paper. Fix fiber paper as usual (fix, hypo clear, wash). RC is simpler -- I use an alkaline fixer for about 90 seconds, then a quick wash, squeegee and hang to dry. Don't forget: prints will be developed in hot water for at least 10 minutes, and keepers will be cleared (I use potassium metabisulfite) and washed. The photo paper I use most often is Ilford Multigrade IV FB Fiber Matte; I generally steer clear of glossy papers because I just don't like the look. Carbon printers spend a lot of time testing papers and sizing -- that's part of the fun.
     
  14. OP
    OP
    Bruce

    Bruce Subscriber

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Location:
    Centerville
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Philip

    Yes it was one of Sandy Kings workshop. One of the participants brought a box of ADOX for us to try. When we ran out of the fixed out photo paper for the workshop some of us tried the ADOX. Results were mixed.

    Thanks for the recommendation on Ilford paper.

    By the way - I like your Leeks image in Sandy's new e book on Carbon printing.
     
  15. pschwart

    pschwart Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm not sure what alt process Adox had in mind for the baryta -- maybe handcoated silver gelatin or POP? I may try it for salt prints. By the way, Photographer's Formulary in Montana used to sell a coated, unsensitized baryta. Transfers were not a problem, but the paper base was pretty low grade, and I thought Ilford fiber made much nicer prints. There are non-baryta photo papers that are worth trying. Ilford even makes one that is 100% cotton. Thanks for comment on Leeks. Lot's of nice images in the new book; I am looking forward to reading it cover-to-cover.
     
  16. OP
    OP
    Bruce

    Bruce Subscriber

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Location:
    Centerville
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Philip

    Is Ilford Multigrade FB Classic Matt Variable Contrast the same paper you recommened? I searched and this is what I found. Not sure if its the same.
     
  17. OP
    OP
    Bruce

    Bruce Subscriber

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Location:
    Centerville
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Support paper for Carbon printing

    Philip

    Is Ilford Multigrade FB Classic Matt Variable Contrast the same paper you recommened? I searched and this is what I found. Not sure if its the same.
     
  18. pschwart

    pschwart Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Yes, same stuff. Ilford papers are consistently high quality, but there are plenty of other photo papers that work equally well. I often calibrate and proof on RC paper and save the good stuff for final prints.
     
  19. OP
    OP
    Bruce

    Bruce Subscriber

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Location:
    Centerville
    Shooter:
    35mm
    carbon paper support

    Philip

    Thanks for the info.
     
,