Frilling while Carbon Printing

[Bruce]

How do you handle frilling while Carbon printing?

When I make carbon prints, sometimes I get frilling. Other times I dont.

Not sure why this happens.

 

[domaz]

Bruce-

The most important way to avoid frilling when carbon printing is to make sure you have a safe edge. Are you doing a safe edge?

If you are already doing a safe edge I would focus on how you are squeegeeing your tissue to your media. Are you squeegeeing in one smooth motion using consistent pressure? After squeegeeing are you putting your tissue + media combination under glass and under weight for at least 5 minutes (more if transferring onto glass or similar substrate)? Is the temperature of your first bath sufficiently low?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

If you are not using a afe edge, then please do. I use lithographic tape when I'm exposing tissue with my halogen exposure table. I also have used red, electrician's tape, but only use it when exposing on my BLB table (halogen gets really hot, so can melt it.... this has never happened to me, mind you).

If you are using a safe edge already, the problem could be: too much exposure, insufficient sizing (if you're using art papers sized with gelatin, etc), too long soak in the mating bath...

 

[Vaughn]

I would get a little frilling if I soaked the final support (fixed out photopaper) too long before mating -- talking hours here, though.

A quick run down of your materials and methods will make it easier to diagnose the problem(s).

 

[Bruce]

Hi All

Thanks for your help.

Yes I am using a black safe edge and rubliith around my negative. I am using the carbon printing/processing steps as taught by Sandy King at a Photographers Formulary workshop this past year. You can read Sandy's web site for details on the various steps. I use his recommended temperatures and process.

I currently use ADOX (a fixed out paper substitute) as my final support since I am just learning this process.

I use both a Brayer and a Squeege to get rid of the water from the sandwich. One fluid motion for both brayer and squeege.. A sheet of glass over the sandwich and a few weights. I let it sit for at least 1 hour before the final separation step.

As I indicated on my original post. Sometimes I get Frilling and other times I don't. Very random - but troublesome.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

You let the sandwich sit under weights for an hour, or in the development bath? Sorry, but that bit's not clear. How long does the tissue sit in the mating bath? What is your water like? Mine is a little alkaline, so I put a wee bit of vinegar in the mating bath. Alkaline base is not good. What temperatur is your development bath? Are you adding hot water while the tissue/final support are in the development bath? Not a good idea as this can also cause frilling, blistering, etc... I don't really want to spend time reading over what Sandy King does so please give more of your workflow. Thanks.

 

[carioca]

This can happen for various reasons, as mentioned already above. If you are using fixed out photographic paper, not enough sizing is not the issue as paper generally works very well.
When I get frilling, it is usually because my soaking time prior to mating was to long.
The squeegeeing step is important. After mating, I run the rubber blade quickly diagonally one time in opposing directions, then immediately wipe up the expulsed water around the edges, I find this first wipe up very critical. Then I take it easy and squeegee multiple times in all directions, always running a fresh dry paper towel around the edges to pick up the remaining expulsed water.
Rarely I get frilling proceeding this way, even with negs without safe edges.

 

[Vaughn]

I have only heard of one person who has used the ADOX Baryta paper (not a photopaper), so this is a small sample size! he did not have great results...frilling might have been one of the problems, but it has been awhile. The paper may not have a gelatin coating on it, instead it is coated with "a pure white barium sulfate emulsion". If this is what you are using, you might try fixed out photo paper and see if your results improve.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I heard that transfers just wouldn't happen on this paper, so I avoided it. It does sound like he is using this paper, though.

 

[pschwart]

I have only heard of one person who has used the ADOX Baryta paper (not a photopaper), so this is a small sample size! he did not have great results...frilling might have been one of the problems, but it has been awhile. The paper may not have a gelatin coating on it, instead it is coated with "a pure white barium sulfate emulsion". If this is what you are using, you might try fixed out photo paper and see if your results improve.

Adox baryta is uncoated, so not a good paper for carbon. The baryta will actually lift off in hot water. You could size the paper, but if you are going to this much trouble, you might as well just use photo paper. Adox is a medium weight paper and nothing special, so sizing watercolor paper would be a big step up. This is not to say that Adox baryta doesn't have uses for alt printing, but I don't find it suitable for carbon transfer.

 

[Bruce]

Guys

Thanks for the comments

Andrew- Tissue in mating bath for 4 minutes before mating step. Sandwich is under weights for 1 hour. Development at 115F .

Adox is JUST OK- not great for learning the process. Sometimes it works without frilling but other times not ok. I am usimng this just to help learn this process.

I will try some fixed out photo paper. How long should I fix out the photo paper and should I use one or two baths plus washing?

Carioca- Thanks for tips on squeegeeing step.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

A 4 minute soak in the mating bath is quite long. Is your mating bath really cold? I mate for 1:15 at 14C...which is colder than most people. 46C development is high in my opinion.
I certainly wouldn't learn the process on an unreliable support. Most people starting off use fixed out photo paper. Ilford matte fibre is really nice. I've also used glossy. I fix for 1 minute with Ilford Rapid fix, then was wash using Ilford's method. Nothing special.

 

[Bruce]

A 4 minute soak in the mating bath is quite long. Is your mating bath really cold? I mate for 1:15 at 14C...which is colder than most people. 46C development is high in my opinion.
I certainly wouldn't learn the process on an unreliable support. Most people starting off use fixed out photo paper. Ilford matte fibre is really nice. I've also used glossy. I fix for 1 minute with Ilford Rapid fix, then was wash using Ilford's method. Nothing special.

Andrew- The times and temperatures that I used were what Sandy King taught at a Photographers Formulary workshop. I will try some old photo paper when I get the chance.
Thanks for your help.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Those times and temperatures may not work for you in your environment, with your tissue, your water, etc. But yes, by all means, try fixed out photo paper. That could be the answer to your frilling! Good luck!

 

[pschwart]

- developing temp: 115 F is definitely at the upper end, and for delicate supports or sizing will probably be too host. Albumen over gelatin
can probably stand this, but I start watercolor papers sized only with gelatin at not above 108 F to avoid blisters and other disasters.

- sandwich under weights: not going to hurt anything, but not required so superfluous. Might be helpful to keep tissue in contact with
the support if one (or both) is curled or cockled, but that is a problem that needs to be eliminated

- 1 hour mating: that is much longer than required. Print will still develop OK, but I don't like what happens when the sandwich dries out.
15 minutes is usually more than sufficient for prints on photo papers. Gelatin-sized watercolor papers seem to do better with 30 minutes.
As usual, test to see what works for you. It takes a lot of time to make a carbon print, so productivity is a built-in issue. I don't want to
spend longer than necessary.

- soak time: I think Sandy has been advocating longer soak time for quite a while, and I think it's sound advice based on his usual thorough
testing. There are lots of differing methods here, but I believe too short a soak (tissue absorbs insufficient water) is the culprit in many
transfer failures. I generally soak for a minimum of 90 seconds, but a bit longer has never hurt anything. Water temp, tissue and final support,
and sizing all play a role so testing required.

- soak temp: I like water straight from the tap -- quick and easy, no complications. My water is generally 65-70 F so I never warm it up or
cool it down. I believe Sandy also advocates a mating bath of 65-70 F. That doesn't mean other temps can't provide good results. I would
caution against trying to replicate a workshop environment since it can differ significantly from your home work space. The takeaway here is
that the bath temp impacts the tissue absorbs water. My advice is always start simple (i.e. tap water at tap temp) and then make adjustments
for specific problems.

Guys

Thanks for the comments

Andrew- Tissue in mating bath for 4 minutes before mating step. Sandwich is under weights for 1 hour. Development at 115F .

Adox is JUST OK- not great for learning the process. Sometimes it works without frilling but other times not ok. I am usimng this just to help learn this process.

I will try some fixed out photo paper. How long should I fix out the photo paper and should I use one or two baths plus washing?

Carioca- Thanks for tips on squeegeeing step.

 

[Rick A]

I had issues with frilling until I stopped using a roller and squeegee, and started using a sponge.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Rick, what are you transferring onto?

 

[Rick A]

Fixed out photo paper mostly, some experiments with sized art paper. My mating water runs about 42-45f this time of year, soak for about one minute before mating. I rub the mated sheets from the center out in all directions with a cellulose sponge, cover with a blotter, glass, and weight. I let stand for at least 15 minutes before soaking in 110f water to separate.

 

[pschwart]

I had issues with frilling until I stopped using a roller and squeegee, and started using a sponge.

I can't think of any reason why the use of a squeegee or a roller would cause frilling when printing single transfer carbon. Frilling can usually be attributed to insufficient support sizing, insufficient water absorbed by the tissue before mating, not masking the negative (no safe edge), or developing at too high a temp.
Try this: Increase the temp of the mating bath to 65-70 F and soak for 90 seconds before mating. I have never tried a sponge, but I suspect it won't effectively move the bead of water between the tissue and support which is the purpose of squeegeeing.

 

[Rick A]

I felt I was possibly exerting too much pressure, making it too dry between the tissue and final support. I don't know that to be true, except I get much better results now, no frilling.

 

[pschwart]

I felt I was possibly exerting too much pressure, making it too dry between the tissue and final support. I don't know that to be true, except I get much better results now, no frilling.

Maybe -- light pressure is all that's needed. A sponge is unorthodox, but if it's working for you don't look back

 

[Bruce]

All

Thanks or your comments. I had pretty good success over the weekend even with the ADOX paper. Not to bad since I am still just learning the process. Only 1 of 4 prints had any frilling.

I will try the times and bath temperatures that Philip recommended to see if anything improves.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

John and Sandy's new e-book:

Dead Link Removed

 

[Vaughn]

I have had an odd corner here or there lift off, but if kept to a minimum size and laid flat (the lifted part) when drying, I have always found the corners to adhere perfectly. But once the lifted corner becomes too large and the gelatin gets stretched, then the effects will be seen in the dry print.

Good luck, Bruce! Try to change just one thing at a time -- something I always had a problem with! Keeping notes and documenting the changes will certainly help avoiding past mistakes, and hopefully help repeating successes! In the end you'll get a process down that fits your material, your working space and your desires in a carbon print!