Friend want to start a film development lab

[moshin]

Tell your friend that business is still little,
Yes, it is true that analog photography comes back to life at a rapid rate, but the volume of demand for development services is not that the hoped-for quantity through which it is possible to reach the break-even point and cover expenses and then make profits.

This friend of yours is just someone who wants to take chances.
He wants to make money from the boom in the world of analog photography,
He wants to ride the wave.
He is not an analog photographer, and he is not a fan of photography.
If he was a photographer and a true lover of analogues, he would not want to seek advice. The real photographer knows everything about this field,, I am in Egypt and I contact Champion in Canada and ask them about the prices of their products and I contact a company in Italy,, and Finally, I prepare the chemistry with my own hands so that I can save some money.
- I am looking for a (cover) for a stainless steel development tank, as it is characterized by the ability to develop a number of rolls with less than half a liter.
Why do I do that?
So I can save some money? Why ?
So that I can buy chemicals before they are about to run out?

(V30) machine, In order to become economical in operation, it must develop at least 50 rolls per day in order to only reach the break-even point and be able to cover the cost of chemistry,, This machine needs 10 liters of chemical per tank .
- You should conduct a careful feasibility study,, and suppose that he brought that machine and brought chemistry to it, opened the laboratory and hung up the sign,, How many rolls is he expected to develop per day.? And what is the life span of chemistry?

Some young men in Egypt saw that I appeared on the analog photographic scene in Egypt and set up an analog club in my home. I started to attract some young men as trainees and as clients. They felt that this might be profitable. And they decided to do so, and they bought a primitive (JOBO) machine from the internet. They bought the powdered Cinesteel chemistry, and they thought that they would be able to make profits, but they made losses, because the life span of the chemistry is short and in return the size of the business is small.

I do not keep a secret from you,, the only thing that has made me cohesive so far is that I am the one who prepares chemistry from scratch, I prepare half a liter and that half a liter should be able to develop six rolls.

I develop films only on Friday and Saturday of every week. If God blessed me with one roll, then I must prepare half a liter.
- So, the consumption of chemistry is according to the number of films that God sends me.

I don't think your friend will succeed, even if he has a huge capital. The story currently needs someone who has profound strengths in this field. Before that, you need passion, you don't need a businessman, but you need a passionate photographer and a lover of analog to the core.

Thanks for your answer, my friend is a great photographer and filmmaker, he also develops his own rolls, we are just researching now and seeing if it makes financial sense.

I wonder what kind of steel tank are you looking for? what model?

 

[moshin]

thinking in other terms, what could be a cheap way to automate certain parts of developing and scanning without spending a fortune for a minilab?

thanks

 

[mohmad khatab]

Perhaps investigate a space for people to develop film and print for themselves on a rental or co-op type arrangement? You provide water, some standard chemicals, necessary hardware and dark. That would shift responsibility to the clients for quality and decrease the inventory of developers you’d need to keep on hand. Maybe a web or app based scheduling system? It could appeal to folks without a home darkroom. Just my 2 cents. A business plan is a must though. Best of luck with whatever you decide.

+1

 

[mohmad khatab]

Thanks for your answer, my friend is a great photographer and filmmaker, he also develops his own rolls, we are just researching now and seeing if it makes financial sense.

I wonder what kind of steel tank are you looking for? what model?

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/161816-Arista-Tank-PVC-Replacement-Top
I want to get this item, and the problem is that the Egyptian government requires those who want to buy online that they must have a bank account in dollars, and this is a malicious method from which poor citizens buy from the Internet, in order to save money.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Color 35mm film, C41 process.

He´s already doing it manually, using a small tank for two rolls at a time. We are seeing an increased interest on analog photography and he is getting lots of request for film development so I want to start looking into it, look at the options, the prices and if it makes sense for the scale we currently at.

Okay ,,
If you are thinking of working with manual tank,
I agree to that, and even encourage you to do so, and I may offer you some tips that will benefit you in this matter, resulting from my experience in this field.
- I lost a lot of money at first because of my stupidity and indifference and because I was using a lot of chemistry and preparing a lot of chemistry in the hope that I would get many clients..
Potential customers,, remain potential until they come themselves or send their films and you get to my hand. (Before that, these customers are the same and nothingness is the same). Any customer who calls you and tells you that he will come with films that he wants to develop, you should consider that this person did not call you, or that he was already coming, but he had an accident and died on the way to you.

I decided to work only two and a half days a week.
Thursday half day from five in the afternoon until ten in the evening and Friday and Saturday from 10 in the morning until ten in the evening.
And I've told all potential clients about it.
Thursday is for receiving films from customers, and Friday is divided into two parts, the first half of this day is for receiving films from customers, and here I will know how many films I have to develop, and based on that, I will make the second half Preparing as much chemistry as I will need it.
- The films will be delivered after development within a week. If the customer wants to scan, I will do it and send the pictures online, and if he does not want to, he must come himself the next week in order to receive the developed films.
I finish .

 

[Down Under]

.... I recall having to sign a waiver when I dropped off film that limited the lab’s responsibility to replacement of film (raw stock) only. It seemed to work. The motion picture labs had the same policy and a reshoot could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (of course they had insurance to cover such a loss). If your friends didn’t have that waiver -wow- that would brutal. Even with the waiver they could get sued of course and have to defend their position. Best to have insurance!!! In any commercial venture.

I've returned late to this thread, and finding some interesting comments. My friends' lab 'accident' was due to one partner's son who had been smoking marijuana (unknown to anyone else) on-site and mixed up the developing chemistry. Disastrous results. The costs were $22,000 plus two hefty legal bills as the plaintiffs' lawyers had to be paid too. This was a few years ago, but I recall the defending lawyer advised a legal waiver to limit damages would not have stood up in court (in Australia) if the defendants' lawyer proved negligence was the cause, which of course it was.

Moving on. A Jobo unit would probably do the job in the early stages of the business. Extra processing tanks would have to be bought, but these are (I think) far cheaper than paying big dollars for a prolab unit. My at home darkroom consists of a budget-priced Jobo Duolab (now no longer manufactured and very, very basic) and six Jobo tanks, so I can easily handle up to a dozen rolls in any given session. I processed a lot of my own film 15-20 years ago but now shoot very little analog so my requirements now are less.

Chemistry is another sticky-point. One small (home) lab in Melbourne once proudly told potential clients they mixed their developers from raw chemistry. I thought about this and decided to give them a miss as I considered there were too many risks. Mix up the metol and hydroquinone or miscalculate and add a double batch of this or that chemical, and boom!! the client's precious films get cooked. Liquid chemistry is the way. Careful planning of the operation to save money can either be spending up big initially to ensure longer term cost savings or penny-pinching, and to me this home-brewing developers sounded like the latter. (This lab lasted about six months and then shut up shop, literally overnight, the partners packed up everything and moved out of their rented space, leaving all sorts of bills behind. A cautionary tale...)

I agree there is scope for potentially good business in film processing, but an important part of the business plan has to be disaster planning.

A business plan doesn't have to be book length, but it has to consider all the important options. A careful and sensible budget for setting up is crucial. Also operating costs for at least one year, and a calculation of how much film has to be done per week to cover the overheads and leave some pocket money for the owners, which is all anyone should realistically expect to get from such a business in the first year.

Moving on again. Re jamesaz (#25), co-op darkrooms have never succeeded well in Australia. They came and went quickly in the so-called good old days when everyone wanted to play with film. All it took was one slob or a thief and things went topsy-turvy. I used one or two in my time but quickly got tired of having to clean up other users' messes and wiping down equipment and counter tops to remove the fixer stains. The home darkroom is my way.

Trying not to be negative here, but merely consider as many of the important options as I can think of. One has to be positive to succeed in a small business, but a well thought out Plan B is crucial if things go belly-up. After all in business, it's really all about - the money.

 

[btaylor]

Quite a tale ozmoose- thanks for sharing. Sound advice I think for a start up- Jobo or similar before investing in big machinery- get your feet wet first and see how it feels.
Now about the Business- IMHO there are several ways to get into it. One is to set out to make money. Lay out your metrics in a formal business plan and see where that takes you- does it lead you to where you want to go? Then stay the course through thick and thin for years and make it your livelihood. Or make your hobby or vocation into a side business. When I was young I tried to turn what I loved into a commercial activity- took on work I disliked doing because I needed to make a dollar, it was very dissatisfying. Decades later I entered another part of the entertainment business with no need to support myself or my family from the earnings. I enjoyed it, only took the work I wanted and when I got tired of it (damn digital!!) I quit and sold off the valuable bits. In the end I made a little money, made friends with a lot of great people from around the world and had a lot of fun. Oh, and make sure you have insurance!

 

[removed account4]

best of luck to your friend OP, another lab will always be a good thing!

 

[moshin]

Okay ,,
If you are thinking of working with manual tank,
I agree to that, and even encourage you to do so, and I may offer you some tips that will benefit you in this matter, resulting from my experience in this field.
- I lost a lot of money at first because of my stupidity and indifference and because I was using a lot of chemistry and preparing a lot of chemistry in the hope that I would get many clients..
Potential customers,, remain potential until they come themselves or send their films and you get to my hand. (Before that, these customers are the same and nothingness is the same). Any customer who calls you and tells you that he will come with films that he wants to develop, you should consider that this person did not call you, or that he was already coming, but he had an accident and died on the way to you.

I decided to work only two and a half days a week.
Thursday half day from five in the afternoon until ten in the evening and Friday and Saturday from 10 in the morning until ten in the evening.
And I've told all potential clients about it.
Thursday is for receiving films from customers, and Friday is divided into two parts, the first half of this day is for receiving films from customers, and here I will know how many films I have to develop, and based on that, I will make the second half Preparing as much chemistry as I will need it.
- The films will be delivered after development within a week. If the customer wants to scan, I will do it and send the pictures online, and if he does not want to, he must come himself the next week in order to receive the developed films.
I finish .

great info, this is the way my friend is working now

 

[moshin]

Thanks for all your answers, really insightful things on here, I´m glad I subscribed to the forum!

Another question, is there anything else on the market like the Jobo CPE-3? (in the same price range) I keep reading lots of issues with it and the price is way too high for those issues (temperature inaccuracies, inconsistencies, design issues, etc).

 

[Luckless]

thinking in other terms, what could be a cheap way to automate certain parts of developing and scanning without spending a fortune for a minilab?

thanks

Cheapest way is being lucky and spotting someone who will pay you to haul one out of a former lab... But that's a hard path to sell as part of a business plan.

How good are you with mechanical design, electrical engineering, and programming/scripting, and how little do you value your time?

Smarter Every Day did a tour of a well set up lab:



Ultimately these are not super complex or overly expensive projects if you have the space and access to suitable tools and materials to build them, but they're also not something most people and put together in a single afternoon. It isn't 1980, and the tools and education material to build these things are wonderfully accessible, but it still a bit more than trivial.

If you have the skills, then an automated dSLR based scanning rig using a camera you already own might be a cheaper path than some of the now somewhat dated high end scanner rigs.

Building your own versions of a film processor might work out cheaper than buying an existing heavily automated system. The lower level automations like Jobo lifts get tighter on savings when you compare just buying an off the shelf product vs rolling your own from scratch.

Don't forget that it isn't just "Get hands on film, develop and scan film", but successfully and reliably handling an individual customer's film at the same time you're handling a film from a bunch of other customers. This detail alone may be more complex for some people than any automation of the physical development process. Smoothly and reliably covering that aspect through whatever development and scanning workflow is a make-or-break aspect of a film lab. To your customers it won't matter how perfectly developed and scanned the film is if it isn't getting back to the right people.

 

[Robert Maxey]

I ran a lab and we had no automation. All deep tanks or small tanks and reels. We were as simple as it gets, starting in 1890. Sheet stuff was processed in Kodak hard rubber tanks and all prints made on enlargers and tray processed. Prints were washed in a huge Pako washer and dried on a ferrotype dryer and straightened with an ancient steam Kodak Print Straightener.

As I recall, it was a dollar to develop the negs and 17 cents per 2R/3R/2S/3S print. 5x7s were .75 and 8x10, buck fifty.

I think it is possible and I wish you luck.

Bob

 

[Luckless]

We were as simple as it gets, starting in 1890.

The lab started in 1890, or 1980, or are you a lich or vampire or something?


But an all manual process lab is totally doable [and probably the sensible path if you're aiming small scale to start with little to no budget] but hard to scale for growth and consistency if you're not planning a path for automation.

 

[mohmad khatab]

great info, this is the way my friend is working now

If he does that, that means he will succeed

 

[mohmad khatab]

The lab started in 1890, or 1980, or are you a lich or vampire or something?


But an all manual process lab is totally doable [and probably the sensible path if you're aiming small scale to start with little to no budget] but hard to scale for growth and consistency if you're not planning a path for automation.

I completely agree with this respected colleague's opinion.
A manual lab is not considered a disgrace nor is it evidence of incompetence.
- Yes, the manual laboratory will need to exert more effort and work with three thermometers at the same time,,
All of that is absolutely fine.
You will get standard results of 99%.

 

[btaylor]

I ran a lab and we had no automation. All deep tanks or small tanks and reels. We were as simple as it gets, starting in 1890. Sheet stuff was processed in Kodak hard rubber tanks and all prints made on enlargers and tray processed. Prints were washed in a huge Pako washer and dried on a ferrotype dryer and straightened with an ancient steam Kodak Print Straightener.

As I recall, it was a dollar to develop the negs and 17 cents per 2R/3R/2S/3S print. 5x7s were .75 and 8x10, buck fifty.

I think it is possible and I wish you luck.

Bob

Excellent point. There were lots of labs back in the day running manual lines. Minimal gear required. Roll and sheet films in hard rubber or stainless tanks.

 

[foc]

Manual lab is an excellent way to go when starting out BUT after time I will guarantee that you would rather pull your hair out or stick pins in your eyes with the repetitive, monotonous tedium of it. (remember processing someone else's film is different from doing your own).

Yes back in the day, hand lines were used and hand prints made but to do the same today you will need to charge a lot more, today, for the same effort.

I don't want to put you off the idea, but if you get fed up doing the same job day in day out, the quality of the work suffers.

Some form of automation makes life a lot easier for the operator, less stress, less boredom, less mistakes.