Fresnel, some light questions. (Strand Arri etc.)

The Urn does not approve...

D
The Urn does not approve...

  • 1
  • 2
  • 13
35mm in 616 test

A
35mm in 616 test

  • 0
  • 0
  • 10
Smiley

H
Smiley

  • 0
  • 1
  • 29

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
197,478
Messages
2,759,821
Members
99,383
Latest member
BaldwinHills
Recent bookmarks
2

samcomet

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
378
Location
Sydney, Australia
Format
35mm RF
Thanks Sam!So the size of the fresnel lens has more to do with the output than the quality? In the book 'hollywood portraits' by Christopher Nisperos and Roger Hicks he says that the old photogs would use a fresnelslightly defocused from full spot and then feathered off a bit. So they'd be using the penumbra, would a larger lens have a more useful penumbra?

G'day Dallas & M. Carter,

In short I would have to answer "yes" to your question. If you hold your arm out with your thumb extended towards the sun on a cloudless day the size of the sun would not be larger than the size of your thumb (depending on latitude and season and time of day). N.B. don't look at the sun directly as you can burn your retina by focussing the U.V. Glancing down you would see a very crisp shadow on the ground. If you did the same thing on an overcast day you would be lucky to see any discernible shadow. In the first case the sun is the source of light and in the second the entire cloudy sky becomes the source.

The same holds true for fresnels. If you look at the lens you will see concentric rings of angled glass held together by troughs of glass. Each ring and trough becomes the source. Look at a turn indicator or warning flasher on an automobile and you will see ripples and bumps that refract the light and the whole of the plastic cover becomes the source and glows evenly. If they did not have these refractive elements built into the lens you would simply see a red or yellow filament flashing on the car.The fresnel lens in this case becomes a larger source of light than simply the filament in the globe.

Thinking about the sun/cloud analogy above, the larger the source of light the softer the light becomes, and hence somewhat more attractive.Going back to the sun analogy; the sun is way further away from the earth than clouds. Another given in lighting is that the further away the source is the apparent size of the source is diminished creating a harder light. Hence the idea of placing a model closer to the fresnel lens for cosmetic reasons, as cited in your book. The closer one is to a relatively larger source increases the wrap-around factor with light spreading around a face, for instance, and into otherwise un-cosmetic shadows.

Your mention of umbra and penumbra comes from the nature of the lamp body itself. There are in fact two sources of light hitting the back of the lens - one from the filament and one from the reflector. In an ideal world both of these would line up exactly but we don't live in an ideal world. Many profile spots in theatre have a reflector adjustment to try and align these two sources and mechanically they appear to be moderately successful; as my learned friend M. Carter suggests in his post in this thread. This misalignment is also partly to blame for chromatic aberration as M. Carter discusses in his post. In my humble opinion, though, the use of the umbra or penumbra would not make a useful difference in the outcome aesthetics of the setup - but this is certainly my own opinion and do not mean to second guess your book.

On a further note, M. Carter discusses the usefulness of fabrics which I can highly recommend. I have spent hours in fabric shops overcoming my initial hesitancy at plowing thru women's dress fabrics for that certain type of embroidery or fabric to hang in front of a source to make it look more interesting (see my previous post in this thread about camouflage nets). I also am adept at discussing nylon stockings and denier counts for use in front or behind the elements of my lens as well as using them mounted in a hole on a black card when burning in blacks under my enlarger to "spread" the blacks a bit. But that's another topic I suppose. At any rate I hope that I have not confused this issue but maybe have shed a bit of light on it.

Cheers for now,

Sam :cool:
 

jpentecost

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
19
Location
Henley-on-Th
Format
35mm
G'day Dallas & M. Carter,

On a further note, M. Carter discusses the usefulness of fabrics which I can highly recommend. I have spent hours in fabric shops overcoming my initial hesitancy at plowing thru women's dress fabrics for that certain type of embroidery or fabric to hang in front of a source to make it look more interesting (see my previous post in this thread about camouflage nets). I also am adept at discussing nylon stockings and denier counts for use in front or behind the elements of my lens as well as using them mounted in a hole on a black card when burning in blacks under my enlarger to "spread" the blacks a bit. But that's another topic I suppose. At any rate I hope that I have not confused this issue but maybe have shed a bit of light on it.

Cheers for now,

Sam :cool:

As a new visitor here I'm not sure what the local policy is on drifting off topic. My experience is similar, diffusion whether added to the light or to the lens is of enormous importance. Samuelson's in London used to have full boxes of nets and David Samuelson once wrote an email explaining how the different ones came about, I'm stuffed if I can find it! All cinematographers have ideas for beauty, one person I know swears by a sweaty palmprint on the front of a master prime, Jack Cardiff had his "Special box of glass" with "DO NOT CLEAN" written on the top, another has a 105mm "Mystery" lens which has fungus inside that looks like a spider (I suspect it was a Takumar but when it had the back half hacked off to make it PL mount the front ring was re ground). For a while rear nets were massively out of fashion, not for aesthetic reasons but because the spinning mirror came so close to the rear element, if the net fell off the bill for repairs was terrifying, now they are back, as is Mitchell diff.

The textiles are similar .. I've seen electricians spraying fire retardant mixture onto 1960's children's bed clothes, flags (as in a Union Jack not a FLAG) and all manner of nets and voiles.
 

samcomet

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
378
Location
Sydney, Australia
Format
35mm RF
As a new visitor here I'm not sure what the local policy is on drifting off topic. My experience is similar, diffusion whether added to the light or to the lens is of enormous importance. Samuelson's in London used to have full boxes of nets and David Samuelson once wrote an email explaining how the different ones came about, I'm stuffed if I can find it! All cinematographers have ideas for beauty, one person I know swears by a sweaty palmprint on the front of a master prime, Jack Cardiff had his "Special box of glass" with "DO NOT CLEAN" written on the top, another has a 105mm "Mystery" lens which has fungus inside that looks like a spider (I suspect it was a Takumar but when it had the back half hacked off to make it PL mount the front ring was re ground). For a while rear nets were massively out of fashion, not for aesthetic reasons but because the spinning mirror came so close to the rear element, if the net fell off the bill for repairs was terrifying, now they are back, as is Mitchell diff.

The textiles are similar .. I've seen electricians spraying fire retardant mixture onto 1960's children's bed clothes, flags (as in a Union Jack not a FLAG) and all manner of nets and voiles.

G'day Jpentecost,

Likewise what I am about to post will be somewhat off topic and my apologies to those who are subscribed to this thread ................ I worked with Dougie Milsom on The Bounty - he was main unit op and I was a best boy. He was sent out to shoot 2nd unit and I was sent to watch his back lighting-wise into the depths of the Tahitian jungles. Years later I read an interview with him in Amer. Cinematographer in which he spoke of trying to obtain a certain "look" for part of the film he was shooting by pre-processing the anti-halation layer off the raw neg and then exposing the film as per normal to get the "hazy/ring halos" around hot spots. He went on to say that the completion guarantors would not insure a reshoot so he he to "test' the theory before they would allow him to do this. In the end it looked great and that small part of the film was shot that way. That got me thinking about my stills. I knew that the basic Mitchell mechanism in Pana-whatevers were stainless; and I knew that stills film did not have this anti-halation layer; I went out and bought a used second SLR, same make and model as the one I was shooting with at the time. I took out the pressure plate and took it to my nearby foundry to have it chromed and inserted it into my usual camera. The results were terrific especially the night shots in B & W. Obviously in this day and age the same effects could probably be returned in Photoshop, but I prefer film.

Anyway I just mention this by way "doing unusual things to get a distinctive look" that is a small part of this thread. Again apologies for OT-ness of this post.:cool:

As an aside my favourite bit of cloth "dingle" was a 4 foot sq. black netting dress material with flowers and petals somehow knitted onto it which made a dandy kookie in front of a fresnel ..............

Cheers all,
Sam
 

M Carter

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
2,147
Location
Dallas, TX
Format
Medium Format
You don't need to have a pressure plate chromed - get a roll of HVAC tape. (It's used for taping ducts but isn't that fabric "duct tape" - it's thin silver foil, about 2" wide) and cover the plate. You can always remove it with alcohol.
 

samcomet

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
378
Location
Sydney, Australia
Format
35mm RF
You don't need to have a pressure plate chromed - get a roll of HVAC tape. (It's used for taping ducts but isn't that fabric "duct tape" - it's thin silver foil, about 2" wide) and cover the plate. You can always remove it with alcohol.

I couldn't argue with success if this works but I would be afraid of foil scratching the neg base. Best of luck.
cheers,
Sam
 

M Carter

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
2,147
Location
Dallas, TX
Format
Medium Format
I couldn't argue with success if this works but I would be afraid of foil scratching the neg base. Best of luck.
cheers,
Sam

When I tried it, I just stripped the wax paper backing from the edges of the piece, went a hair wider than the plate, and wrapped the leading and trailing edges a hair around the plate sides. It's very flat "chrome" kind of foil with no wrinkles - the pressure will sandwich it with the film and hold it down.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom