Forum threads designed to provoke..

[Sean]

I found some code for an 'ignore thread' feature. I'll try to get it installed soon. It adds "Ignore this thread" to the Thread Tools menu

 

[Ornello]

Hi all,

I am a bit concerned over some recent threads and how they seemed designed to provoke people and cause controversy. This is sometimes known as trolling or baiting. We all know how these threads end up and I feel they should have no place here..

It's pretty easy to tell when a thread is a genuine attempt to make people think vs. something designed to cause controversy. If you feel a thread has been designed to cause problems, then please feel free to make use of the "report" button in the bottom right corner of the posting. I also suggest not replying to the thread and even adding the thread owner to your ignore list.

Thanks, Sean

Sean and everyone:

Provoking thought is a good thing. Cultural critique is a good thing. What bothers some people is that anyone would question the value of something in which they have made a huge emotional investment.

It is no crime to question or to critique the 'culture' or 'aesthetic' of the zone system, quite apart from any technical critique of it. That there are substantial technical issues with it is another matter, but surely the cultural critique itself is legitimate.

I find spending time with only those whose opinions align with mine to be unrewarding.

I have myself changed my approach to photographic exposure and development over the years. In other words: I was wrong. I learned from these mistakes and began to figure out how to learn better and faster.

Odds are, if you cannot stand anyone challenging what you hold to, there is something wrong.

I can explain, step by step, in detail, exactly why I do what I do in B&W photography, and why those practices and procedures provide higher quality and greater ease of operation than alternative procedures. I can give you the physics and chemistry of it, not fairy tales or legends. I can perform comparative tests (which I did, of course) which clearly show differences in films, developers, lenses, and procedures.

Not everyone does this. Many people learn photography from a class or two, or a book or two, or the advice of a friend. And of course the basics are usually the same. What differentiates merely good results from the best possible results can sometimes be quite elusive and subtle, and not discovered for years, because you're looking in the wrong place. Cut your agitation in half, and presto, your prints look marvelous! (and here you thought it was your developer!)

Those who are not accustomed to a highly critical environment do not know how to take this. They feel uneasy and threatened. Not everyone has had the opportunity to defend a dissertation or philosophy paper. Not everyone has a knack for finding the weaknesses in an opponent's chain of reasoning. Not everyone knows which sources are the most reliable and which ones are not, and why. These people do not understand why some of us want to engage them in this way. Their reaction is often anger and frustration, and expressions of 'ban the bastard!'

If you wish to be surrounded by only those who will never question what you do or why you do it, I must ask you whether you truly want to grow.

Ornello Pederzoli, II

 

[c6h6o3]

Bob F.'s suggestion is the best one - block his IP address at the firewall. He will never stop posting provocative comments. An 'ignore thread' feature still plays his game - you can ignore the thread but he will still have wrecked what had started out as a useful thread, driving people away in the process.

 

[Ornello]

Bob F.'s suggestion is the best one - block his IP address at the firewall. He will never stop posting provocative comments. An 'ignore thread' feature still plays his game - you can ignore the thread but he will still have wrecked what had started out as a useful thread, driving people away in the process.

'Provocative'.

What do you mean?

 

[John Bartley]

Hi all,
I am a bit concerned over some recent threads and how they seemed designed to provoke people and cause controversy. This is sometimes known as trolling or baiting. We all know how these threads end up and I feel they should have no place here..
It's pretty easy to tell when a thread is a genuine attempt to make people think vs. something designed to cause controversy. If you feel a thread has been designed to cause problems, then please feel free to make use of the "report" button in the bottom right corner of the posting. I also suggest not replying to the thread and even adding the thread owner to your ignore list.
Thanks, Sean

This is my $0.02 regarding "The Lounge"::

The lounge is a place for discussions about almost anything, not for "anything goes"

I wouldn't want to see lounge discussions stopped or cutailed for as one astute respondant (Hello Neal) noted, thete are some good bits of useful and/or entertaining information that come out of even the most dynamic off topic threads.

What I would like to see is self control with regard to expressions of anger, profanity etc. When the posters become abusive and/or profane, then everyone suffers and that's about the only time that I'd like to see threads and/or posters stopped.

I am strongly in favour of posting with real full names and addresses. I've always discounted the value of a post that's made from a position of anonymity.

The suggestion of not replying is excellent, but we are after all human, so... it's not likely gonna' happen eh?

As far as the non-lounge forums - they have rules, they are NOT the place for trolling - they should be more strictly enforced than the lounge with regard to behaviour and manners towards others as well as suitability of the topic. That doesn't mean no arguments, it just means that we keep a civil polite tone while we argue like hell.

Maybe members and subscribers should have to apply for access rather than just register?

Personally, with exception of a couple of posts, I didn't find the last round of exchanges overly bad, just a bit emotional on a couple of topics that deserved emotion.

cheers eh?

 

[c6h6o3]

'Provocative'.

What do you mean?

You use an image of Benito Mussolini as an avatar on a forum which seeks to engage in meaningful discourse about an art form and you ask what I mean by 'provocative'?

 

[Ornello]

You use an image of Benito Mussolini as an avatar on a forum which seeks to engage in meaningful discourse about an art form and you ask what I mean by 'provocative'?

You want maybe Bugs Bunny? It can be arranged!

 

[jd callow]

/:

 

[clay]

I, for one, have found this whole thing tremendously amusing. I think that provocateurs have a place in this world - they keep one from becoming parochial and complacent. I take the attitude that having a challenge to your ideas is useful - if for nothing else but to make you re-examine your beliefs with a critical eye.

And, if something is too outrageous, we can always exercise that thing called self control and just refuse to respond. I learned that in a playground somewhere.

 

[Flotsam]

I'm primarily a 35mm photographer but it has never occurred to me to be concerned that others are out shooting wonderful landscapes with big sheet film cameras and using whatever system of exposure they prefer.

I am not afraid of silly, self-indulgent threads that are designed merely to troll for reactions. They are just a pain in the ass.

 

[smieglitz]

...
What I would like to see is self control with regard to expressions of anger, profanity etc. When the posters become abusive and/or profane, then everyone suffers and that's about the only time that I'd like to see threads and/or posters stopped...

I'd agree with this part of your suggestion John. I've followed and even participated in a couple of the threads which I believe are in question. While the posts made by a couple of individuals may have been provocative, wandering, and seemingly outlandish at times, these apparent target(s) of people's wrath did not personally verbally attack or specifically denigrate any of the other respondents as far as I saw. However, several participants referred specifically to the OP as "pathetic" and some other less than desirable terms, and others were very free with profanity and personal threats.

In fact, based on what I've followed, I'm not even sure which individual(s) Sean may have cautioned about the nature of their public posts.

There's always a bit of noise in the signal.


Joe

 

[bobfowler]

Bob F.'s suggestion is the best one - block his IP address at the firewall. He will never stop posting provocative comments. An 'ignore thread' feature still plays his game - you can ignore the thread but he will still have wrecked what had started out as a useful thread, driving people away in the process.

The trouble is, most people do not have static IP addresses. The vast majority of ISP's (even with broadband) use dynamic IP address assignments.

I think the best solution is the "Ignore Thread" option, but to be honest, I probably wouldn't use it. Sometimes the irreverent shit in the lounge makes for a wonderful distraction... as long as it STAYS in the lounge.

 

[John McCallum]

... these apparent target(s) of people's wrath did not personally verbally attack or specifically denigrate any of the other respondents as far as I saw. ...

Actually that's not true Joe.

Les has already expressed his frustration at the personal and apparently unjustified attack from this particular provocateur. He then challenged him to discuss his 'superior' technical ideas in open. But of course the coward never took up the challenge.

This is the difference between someone who goes around pushing peoples' buttons for the fun of invoking a response, as opposed to challenging ideas so they can be discussed openly for the good of those involved.

 

[jimgalli]

Sean, Removing a cancer is always painful, never fun, but the sooner it is removed the better the prognosis for a full recovery. The healthy cells will thank you.

 

[smieglitz]

Actually that's not true Joe.

Les has already expressed his frustration at the personal and apparently unjustified attack from this particular provocateur. He then challenged him to discuss his 'superior' technical ideas in open. But of course the coward never took up the challenge.

This is the difference between someone who goes around pushing peoples' buttons for the fun of invoking a response, as opposed to challenging ideas so they can be discussed openly for the good of those involved.

John,

I'm aware of that post by Les but have no direct knowledge of what was said other than Les' account. I don't think that is the issue here. If insults are being expressed privately and a complaint is registered with evidence to back it up, then by all means that individual should be barred. However, his public dialogue, which often relies on subtle semantics, may indicate a clever avoidance of actual personally-directed insults although perhaps inferred and interpreted by the other party as such. I haven't seen that private exchange and really don't care to. That is a matter between Les, MS and Sean.

As indicated in my previous post, I'm only commenting on what "I saw" in the public threads. Hence my statement: "In fact, based on what I've followed, I'm not even sure which individual(s) Sean may have cautioned about the nature of their "public posts."

I don't see where MS or OP (or whoever he is) has made any public derogatory comment or insult about or against another individual poster. He has made some sweeping generalizations and categorizations as well as some outlandish statements, but he has not personally attacked any specific individual publicly AFAIK. Yet, his person has been attacked verbally, villified and even threatened. I think it best to simply ignore him rather than to react in such a manner.

Joe

 

[david b]

First, I would like to say how much I like this place.

Second, I think Sean is doing a great job.

Third, I really do not want to, nor should I be required to, use my full name (security issues for me).

Fourth, some people just really like to hear themselves talk (or type) and we have the option of ignoring them.

Fifth, if anyone here is feeling threatened or uncomfortable because of the actions/words of another member, Sean should be notified immediately.

 

[Soeren]

Sean, I find this tread provocing
When I first found this forum,
actually thanks to a link Mr MS posted on another forum ,
I was pleased with how civil people here talked and still talk (majority). I won't let one individual ruin that and find the "ignore tread" option a great idea. Sean could also make a "Flame War" forum
I think APUG is the greatest bunch of people Ive ever run into on the WWW lets keep it that way.

Regards Søren

 

[blansky]

I finally added that zone thread owner to my ignore list since it was obvious he was baiting people. I hope it's the first and last time I use that feature. Still, I thought the Zone was handled brilliantly.

Michael, don't you have a limerick for Prince Chuck and his soon to be bride?

Cheers,

James

There once was a man name of Chuck
Whose ears appear to be stuck
Like a satellite dish
With the face like a fish
But he sure seems to have all the luck.

He married the girl of our dreams
But alas he had his own schemes
He’d slip out at night
For a little delight
And it wasn’t strawberries and creams

His bride was so young and so sweet
To everyone that she would greet
But he liked the frump,
Who he’d run off to hump
Like a goat in a great deal of heat

She must be a really good ****
And posses a great deal of pluck
But with one good look
Could easily be mistook
My God she’s been hit by a truck

I know you say it’s a lorry
But still it’s a very sad story
The first one he tried
She up and died
And the details are all pretty gory.

So now that he’s found his new mate
The one that he once used to date
She looks like a toad
Or ten miles of bad road
But it’s starting to all look like fate.

The Queen has given the okay
She’s says she’s letting her stay
But as part of the trade
She’s having her spayed
Before an official role in the hay

One day he’s sure to be king
Standing up there with this thing
And we’re all feeling sad
Because it’s all gone so bad
The day he gave her the ring

The one thing we fear the most
As we raise our glass to toast
That the face of his honey
Won’t show up on the money
Being spend here from coast to coast

Well that’s the end of this story
From the land of hope and glory
Maybe the French were right
When all the heads took flight
Cause this is looking awful gory.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Blansky,

HAR! HAR! HAR! (you are formidably fast)

Murray

 

[Ole]

Matt,
It is funny how many time I search Google for information on a photographic topic and wind up being directed back to APUG.

What I don't find funny is how often I find that I'm the one who provided the information - it looks like I'm using APUG as an "external memory"!

 

[arigram]

Keep your calm and your civillity and everything's going to be aaaaalright!

 

[Digidurst]

John,

I'm aware of that post by Les but have no direct knowledge of what was said other than Les' account. I don't think that is the issue here. If insults are being expressed privately and a complaint is registered with evidence to back it up, then by all means that individual should be barred. However, his public dialogue, which often relies on subtle semantics, may indicate a clever avoidance of actual personally-directed insults although perhaps inferred and interpreted by the other party as such. I haven't seen that private exchange and really don't care to. That is a matter between Les, MS and Sean.

As indicated in my previous post, I'm only commenting on what "I saw" in the public threads. Hence my statement: "In fact, based on what I've followed, I'm not even sure which individual(s) Sean may have cautioned about the nature of their "public posts."

I don't see where MS or OP (or whoever he is) has made any public derogatory comment or insult about or against another individual poster. He has made some sweeping generalizations and categorizations as well as some outlandish statements, but he has not personally attacked any specific individual publicly AFAIK. Yet, his person has been attacked verbally, villified and even threatened. I think it best to simply ignore him rather than to react in such a manner.

Joe

I agree with Joe and at the risk of incurring the wrath of the entire APUG community, I will add that some of the writers of posts directed at OP should be ashamed of themselves! I might be new to APUG but when I happened upon the site, I was thrilled to find such a wealth of information and a group of folks who genuinely wanted to help their fellow photographers. But then to see such gross misconduct, accusations and insults! If the individual in question irritates you so much, than take the high road and refrain from response. And if you must respond, then try to remain adult and diplomatic. Debates are fun or at least they can be but if you are unable to debate without ripping another's character to shreds than perhaps professional counseling is where you need to spend your time as opposed to the forums here. Sorry to be harsh but Sean has worked very hard to make this site a reality and the behavior of certain individuals is an insult to his contribution.

 

[Soeren]

I haven't been PMed or in any way harrased here but I did some googleing and,
as most of you may already know found that the persons whoes names this individual uses as aliases are/where, an Eco terrorist, a Facist and a childmurderer, is that "coincidal?" ?
Does it reflect his true personality or is it just a bad joke ?
I wasn't born then but I have had familymembers who spent some years in german KZ camps so I'm not that fond of a certain name and avatar.
What is said about feeding the Troll is so right but I do understand if people feel annoid or even attacked when addressed in an inappropiate way or PMed with some way out remarks. It may be very difficult for some of us to just let it go and let this troll have the last word. If we can't be a Trollfree forum we can at least try to ignore him. Hell no I want this to be a Trollfree forum
Søren

 

[MurrayMinchin]

It would involve more than an article. Stay tuned.

There's this local rock climber. He has his climbing magazine subscriptions delivered to his place of work so everybody can see the amazing photographs of people actually cimbing, then he spins great yarns concerning his feats of granduer. He shows up at the climbing site only in the first couple weeks of the season - just enough to get his gear a little dirty and maintain the illusion. He always has a blissfully-un-aware rooky with him he's introducing to climbing, so he of course can't take the poor novice onto the really steep & hard stuff.

Sad really,

Murray

 

[Andy K]

BRAC wrote

Will we be having someone expressing congratulations to Prince Charles & Mrs Parker-Bowles on their forthcoming marriage? .

Actually that wasn't what the flaming was about. There were a couple of thread with el Duce in them.
I'm just happy that Prince Charles was able to find someone as ugly as himself to marry. He certainly scoured high and low for that one. She's a beaut.
Michael

Aw give the man some credit, I for one, believe Chas shows remarkable intestinal fortitude! Let's be honest here, the majority of us, upon waking to the sight of Camilla Parker-Bowles head on the pillow beside us, would think the mafia had left a threat.