Forte products, rebadged.

[jstraw]

Ok, in addition to laying up a supply of exisitng Forte stock, still in the distribution channels, one could buy it up under it's various OEM'd labels. So I thought we should put our heads together and compile a list of Forte analogs.

From the film survey I worked on previously, I got this:

Forte Fortepan 400 = J&C Classic 400 / old Arista.EDU 400 / Wephota NP-27

Forte Fortepan 200 = Bergger BPF-200 / J&C Classic 200/ old Arista.EDU 200

I also understand that J&C Polywarmtone is Forte

Let's have at it.

 

[blaze-on]

I got this from another thread:
J&C Classic Polywarmtone = Forte Polywarmtone plus =ADOX Polywarmtone = other well known rebranded versions

J&C Classic Museum = Forte Fortezzo Heavy = other well known rebranded versions

J&C Classic Polygrade = Forte PV-G = other well known rebranded versions

J&C Expo = Maco Expo = Efke Emaks

 

[srs5694]

Freestyle sells Forte products under its Arista.EDU brand -- but note that other manufacturers make Arista Pro, Arista II, and Arista.EDU Ultra, so if you want Forte, be sure you get non-Ultra Arista.EDU. I don't know exact mappings of Forte to Arista.EDU product names, though.

 

[dancqu]

...be sure you get non-Ultra Arista.EDU.

An aside: The ONE paper I've found which
claims to have a Developer Incorporated
EMULSION is an EDU Ultra paper. May
wish to check before ordering. Dan

 

[kjsphoto]

Arista EDU Ultra is Foma and I think their is developing agents in the paper.

Forte - Arista EDU had no agents in it.

Arista II is Kentmere I believe.

 

[Lee Shively]

The Arista.edu "Made In Hungary" papers are Forte. The last time I checked the website, there was a very limited selection of the warm tone.

 

[dancqu]

Arista EDU Ultra is Foma and I think
there is developing agents in the paper.
Forte - Arista EDU had no agents in it.
Arista II is Kentmere I believe.

To test expose a piece of print paper.
Dissolve a 1/4 teaspoon of sodium carbonate
in a few ounces of water then develop. Dan

 

[kjsphoto]

Dan what should I be looking for to tell?

Thanks,

kev

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

If the paper develops in a simple alkaline solution without any developer added, then it's a developer-incorporated emulsion.

 

[dancqu]

Dan what should I be looking for to tell? Thanks, kev

Any thing but white paper base. You've an exposed piece
of print paper and testing to see if there is developer
in the emulsion waiting to be activated. Dan

 

[don sigl]

Freestyle sells Forte products under its Arista.EDU brand -- but note that other manufacturers make Arista Pro, Arista II, and Arista.EDU Ultra, so if you want Forte, be sure you get non-Ultra Arista.EDU. I don't know exact mappings of Forte to Arista.EDU product names, though.

The Arista EDU is NOT Forte PWT. Regardless of what freestyle says. It is a similar paper, but will not tone the same as Forte. it is inferior in that respect. I have tested it with nelsons gold toner 9my toner of choice), and the Arista does not have the rich beown black color. it tends more toward red/orange in Nelsons. It also tones faster (hard to believe, but it will tone in about 2-4 minutes in nelsons)

 

[jstraw]

There's another paper coating facility in Hungary?

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

The Arista EDU is NOT Forte PWT. Regardless of what freestyle says. It is a similar paper, but will not tone the same as Forte. it is inferior in that respect. I have tested it with nelsons gold toner 9my toner of choice), and the Arista does not have the rich beown black color. it tends more toward red/orange in Nelsons. It also tones faster (hard to believe, but it will tone in about 2-4 minutes in nelsons)

Bear in mind there can be batch consistency and storage issues with these products.

I found, for instance, that there was a half stop speed difference between a batch of Fortepan 400 I bought under the Arista.EDU (old) label and another box I bought under the J&C Classic label. John from J&C thought it was likely a storage issue in that case. So my solution was to try to buy enough from the same batch at the same time so I wouldn't have to retest for a while. Along with 1950s film technology and the 1950s look come 1950s user testing procedures, alas.

It could be that they are the "same" paper, but you might need a different toning time or dilution to achieve the same effect for different batches, if it is possible to achieve the same effect.

 

[Lee Shively]

I just finished the last of my Forte Polywarmtone today and opened a brand new box of Arista.edu "Made In Hungary" paper to finish the session. They seem to be the same paper to me. A little bit of exposure adjustment was the only difference in the two boxes. Both toned in Kodak RST exactly the same. Freestyle's designations are a bit mindboggling but the "Made In Hungary" paper is Forte Polywarmtone.

 

[dancqu]

"Made In Hungary" paper is Forte Polywarmtone.

This thread has made up my mind. NO more re-badged re-labeled
re-bagged paper for me. Coating plants are one thing. Send them
the formula, and prescribe the paper. Out-sourcing, job shopping,
fab facility manufacture, what ever. As an example, you know
that it is a Bergger paper when in a Bergger wrapper. Hope
so. Any counterfeits out there? Are our sources
careful of their sources? Dan

 

[jstraw]

I believe Bergger re-badges plenty of stuff.

I don't understand this idea that rebadging is counterfeiting. Rebadging simply means that the producing company OEM's their product to a variety of other enterprises at a rate that reflects their non-involvment in costs associated with developing those niche markets. Forte, or whoever...can produce and sell a lot more product when their involvement with advertising, marketing, retail distribution, etc. is limited. They're better off because they can produce and sell a lot more inventory than they can market themselves. They're not being misused.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

By many accounts, some Bergger products are identical to Forte products and may even be cut from the same master rolls.

 

[dancqu]

Forte, or whoever...can produce and sell a lot more product...

Forte has ceased production along with Agfa and Kodak.
All three had the same problem; massive production facilities
in a shrinking market. The three may still have been in business
if they had learned to "produce and sell" a lot less
and do it at a profit. Dan

 

[jstraw]

Forte has ceased production along with Agfa and Kodak.
All three had the same problem; massive production facilities
in a shrinking market. The three may still have been in business
if they had learned to "produce and sell" a lot less
and do it at a profit. Dan

Or they might just have gone out of business much sooner if they hadn't had as much help as possible selling their production. As PE has been at pains to explain, running a coating plant less and less, and slower and slower is not the simplest thing.

I can imagine that managing workable economies of scale and then finding a market for the output is a growing challenge. The fact is, somewhere down the road, some sort of equillibrium will be reached that will reflect a more stable and much smaller user base and a production output that serves that base. The sad truth is that the lower level of production will likely be served by a significantly smaller number of coating plants. Whether that ultimately means that *any* other than Ilford's will survive remains to be seen. Even a lone facility like the former Kodak plant in Hungary that became Forte simply doesn't have the resources to build and support an internationally familiar brand itentity like Kodak, Ilford, Fuji or Agfa, especially during a period of a contracting marketplace. You can see that even those brands have been taking it on the chin. Without a major branding presence, even at their minimum sustainable production levels, a second tier company must have resellers to OEM to. My personal opinion is that when you find a second tier product that you like..and have identified a multiplicity of packaging identities for, you do the manufacturer the most good by purchasing the product most clearly positioned to serve your geographic niche. This helps the manufacturer maintain the broadest and most sustainable reach across the marketplace.