Forte Polywarmetone Plus, but no warm tones.

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 4, 2005

Forte Polywarmtone Plus, but no warm tones.

Dear fellows, I have printed through an entire box of Forte Polywarmtone plus during this weekend, and I have to say that the product is outstanding.

I thought that Agfa Neutol WA (I had some in stock) was the perfect choice for this kind of paper, but I can't see the premised "warm tone". Actually, I have always failed to achieve any kind of warm tone from any kind of paper by using Neutol WA.

What's the matter with the thing? Or may I don't know what "warm" means, perhaps? Of course I don't expect to obtain sepia-toned prints, but these seem pure cold black as usual.

Somebody tried the specific Forte warm tone developer? Is it fine, and WARM?

abeku · Nov 4, 2005

Strange, Marco! I was spending last night in the darkroom working with Forte polywarmtone and Neutol WA, a marvellous combination, ending up with prints with a brown warm tone, leaning towards green depending on what light you are using. Have you compared your prints to a paper known to be a "cold" paper?

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 4, 2005

Yes, standard Ilford paper in Ilford Multicontrast. Now, that's amazing.

When you say "brown", you mean a difference that even a blind could see, or a super-slight tonal drift?

At which diluition you used the Agfa WA? That may be the key.

And which fixer? The booklet leaves room to the hypothesis that some fixers may alter the warm tone.

abeku · Nov 4, 2005

The brown is evident. You wouldn't miss it. I dilute Neutol 1+8 and I use a fixer from Calbe called A300. Sure you have Neutol WA and not NE?

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 4, 2005

Sure, absolutely. I used it 1+9 so it shouldn't make a big difference, I guess. Now, this is a mistery. The only thing that comes to mind is that it was quite old, though still transparent and well preserved, not yellowish. It was very active as a standard developer, but may it have lost its "warming" abilities over time, perhaps?

abeku · Nov 4, 2005

Here's a quick scan of a print from last night. The Forte paper on top of a Oriental paper (with a neutral tone), both processed in Neutol WA for 1.5-2 minutes. Striking difference, isn't it?[/IMG]

Mongo · Nov 4, 2005

My favored warm paper is Ilford MGIV FB, and the warm tone from that paper, when developed in Neutol-WA, is extremely evident. I'm surprised to hear that you're having this issue with the Forte paper, given that the examples I've seen have all been so obviously warmtone with that paper. The images have been brown-and-white, not black-and-white. Which is, really, what you want from a warmtone paper.

I generally run Neuto-WA at 1:14, but would expect very warm images at 1:9 with a warmtone paper.

Have you tried looking at the images under different lights? Perhaps that's your issue...I know that under some flourescents my warmtone prints look a little less warmtone to me...hopefully your problem is something as simple as this. The other thing that might help would be to know the rest of your processing routine (stop bath, fixer, wash cycle, etc.). There might be something in there that's causing you problems.

Best of luck to you.
Dave

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 4, 2005

I guess you meant Ilford MG FB Warmtone, right? I don't like that paper very much, as its base is not pure white but creamy, so switched to something else immediately.

However, wash has no effect as in the fixer it's already evident that the warmtone is not there. Process is: Neutol WA 1+9, 4 mins; Ilford Ilfostop Indicator 1+19, 1 min; Ornano Superfix 1+9, 4 mins. But again, I guess the key is in the developer only.

Did anyone ever got warm tones with Agfa WA even from Ilford MGIV polithene paper perhaps? I remember doing side-by-side comparisons with MGIV when the Agfa WA was fresh new, and could see absolutely no difference. If there SHOULD be difference, probably I ran into an Agfa NE batch wrongly packed as WA.

timeUnit · Nov 4, 2005

Marco Gilardetti said:
However, wash has no effect as in the fixer it's already evident that the warmtone is not there. Process is: Neutol WA 1+9, 4 mins; Ilford Ilfostop Indicator 1+19, 1 min; Ornano Superfix 1+9, 4 mins. But again, I guess the key is in the developer only.

I have heard, but not experienced myself, that a more diluted developer and longer development reduces the warm tone. Try to dilute 1+7 or less and expose your prints a bit more. Develop for a maximum of 2 minutes.

To be honest, I find that the effect of warmtone emulsions vs. neutral or cold tone is subtle. Abeku's examples are good: neutral/cold vs. warmtone. By making the comparison like that the effect is more obvious.

If you want the polywarmtone to be warm: give it 2 minutes in selenium 1+9. If you want pure chocolate: give it 4 minutes. That is IMO the cool thing about Forte, the papers are so easy to manipulate with toners.

Check out the attachment. That's Fortezo in selenium for 3,5 minutes. My experience with Forte Polywarmtone is that it behaves similarly to Fortezo, but slightly slower.

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 4, 2005

Wasn't it exactly the opposite? Higher diluitions, warmer tones? Plus, it's not a developer-incorporated paper, 4 mins at 20° are necessary for the image to form fully. 2 mins are an Ilfospeed-like time, as far as I recall.

Well, I don't know. Will buy Forte's specific developer + fixer and see.

timeUnit · Nov 4, 2005

Hmmm, I can't seem to find where I've heard this. So I might be totally wrong...

I found that some people state that warm tone papers are warm due to smaller silver grains. Less dilution should give smaller grains. Also I found that to get colder tones from say dektol, one should add a restrainer (BZT?) and develop for a longer time. This would increase silver grains, and cool the image tone. I have not tried this, so I'm only repeating what I found here and on photo.net.

Anyway. I get the results that abeku showed using dektol at 1+2 and developing for 2 minutes. Last time I was in the darkroom I used a slightly out of date dektol at 1+1 and developed for 1 minute. I can't say I see a difference in that compared to 1+2 for 2 minutes... If I want to increase the warm tone, I tone prints in selenium for a few minutes.

titrisol · Nov 4, 2005

I haven;t used Forte Warmotne in a few years, but theirs used to be a very warm paper. Even when developed in Dektol-clones at 1+3.

Maybe your box was mislabeled?
Can you buy an envelope of Forte Neutral and compare?

Marco Gilardetti said:
Wasn't it exactly the opposite? Higher diluitions, warmer tones? Plus, it's not a developer-incorporated paper, 4 mins at 20° are necessary for the image to form fully. 2 mins are an Ilfospeed-like time, as far as I recall.

Well, I don't know. Will buy Forte's specific developer + fixer and see.

Wayne · Nov 4, 2005

Marco Gilardetti said:
I guess you meant Ilford MG FB Warmtone, right? I don't like that paper very much, as its base is not pure white but creamy, so switched to something else immediately.

However, wash has no effect as in the fixer it's already evident that the warmtone is not there. Process is: Neutol WA 1+9, 4 mins; Ilford Ilfostop Indicator 1+19, 1 min; Ornano Superfix 1+9, 4 mins. But again, I guess the key is in the developer only.

Did anyone ever got warm tones with Agfa WA even from Ilford MGIV polithene paper perhaps? I remember doing side-by-side comparisons with MGIV when the Agfa WA was fresh new, and could see absolutely no difference. If there SHOULD be difference, probably I ran into an Agfa NE batch wrongly packed as WA.

Its more likely that your paper was mislabelled. Forte PWT+ is warm whether you use Neutol WA or not. Although the color can be controleld to large degree, I have never seen it look fully neutral, and certainly not cold. Neutol WA turns it a hideous green in my experience.

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 4, 2005

The more we talk about it, the more it's clear that something went wrong.

The paper was kept in the freezer. Can that make any difference perhaps?

Peter Schrager · Nov 4, 2005

Forte WT

Marco-perhaps you have paper from the batch that was being sold after Forte re-started production. This paper was not quite seasoned yet. Maybe by leaving it OUT of the freezer for a few weeks will ripen it to where it will do what it is suppoosed to....just a idea
Peter

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 4, 2005

Don't think so, I bought it before all that fuss.

titrisol · Nov 4, 2005

That's a great trick! chilling warmtoned papers in the freezer :LOL:

Marco Gilardetti said:
The more we talk about it, the more it's clear that something went wrong.

The paper was kept in the freezer. Can that make any difference perhaps?

NikoSperi · Nov 4, 2005

I'll chime in with an unfortunately unhelpful, "hmmm, that's odd." I used both the polywarmtone and the fortezo in Neutol WA an thought, "woah... that's way too brown."

Maybe it's something in the water?

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 4, 2005

Oh, damn! I sure picked up the only time/temp/diluition/weather condition/astral conjunction in the world which leads to cold blacks. Will make some experiments in varying conditions as soon as I'll receive the next batch!

titrisol · Nov 4, 2005

Or probably the next batch will be warm right off the bat!
ciao!

Marco Gilardetti said:
Oh, damn! I sure picked up the only time/temp/diluition/weather condition/astral conjunction in the world which leads to cold blacks. Will make some experiments in varying conditions as soon as I'll receive the next batch!

fschifano · Nov 4, 2005

FWIW, I sometimes use Dektol 1+4 to get slightly, and I do me slightly, warmer tones on otherwise neutral toned papers. Once you've runa few prints through it, the effect becomes more noticeable. This makes sense in a way. Warm tone developers usually contain more bromide than cold tone developers, and use less alkali. Using a more dilute than usual working solution of Dektol results in less alkali per unit of measure. Developing a few prints in a working batch raises the bromide levels.

Mongo · Nov 4, 2005

Marco Gilardetti said:
I guess you meant Ilford MG FB Warmtone, right?

Indeed I did...sorry I forgot to add "Warmtone" to my post. I understand your dislike for the cream-colored base of the paper...I just find that it works well for me. (It's far from the only paper I use...it's just my warmtone paper of choice. To each his own.)

I'm with you in that I've always been told to dilute the developer more to get more warmtone effect, and less for neutral effect. This has been my "common wisdom" with Neutol-WA and with Ethol LPD for years.

I think you got a batch of mislabeled paper. Any warmtone paper in Neutol-WA should give you warm tones without fuss. Your process is fine, so there's nothing there that's causing the problem. If you have warmtone paper then I'm shocked. I'd say to try another batch of paper to see what happens...save the package you have now for when you want neutral or cold tones.

Best of luck to you.
Dave

timeUnit · Nov 4, 2005

It seems I had gotten the facts messed up. Increased dilution should give warmer tones. Your times and dilution should by all means give warm tones, so something is wrong with the paper. Have you compared the dry prints to dry prints of another manufacturer? If there is any warm tone in the paper it _will_ be evident if compared to something like Ilford MGIV RC or Kentmere VC Select.

Good luck!

*h

Bob F. · Nov 4, 2005

Yes, experience is that greater dilution = greater warmth.

I am surprised by this too as I have used Polywarmtone RC in Neutol WA (1+9 - which is my usual warmtone developer) and the tone is unmistakable and VERY warm... I have had WA in my Nova for several weeks with no detectable change in effect so it is unlikely to be an age issue.

You didn't end up with a bottle of Neutol NE instead of WA by any chance?

Very odd.

Cheers, Bob.

litwit · Nov 4, 2005

Hi. I'm a new member, and have been using Forte Polywarmtone as my standard paper for the past few years. Though I've not tried the Neutol WA, I've tried a number of developers with this paper, and have found that the ZonalPro HQ Warmtone developer, diluted 1:19 for 4 to 4-1/2 minutes gives me the best results: nice golden brown skin tones, and deep chocolate brown-black shadows. I have to be careful with selenium toning though, for I find the paper becomes cooler, not warmer, with toning. I'd be curious to know if others see that effect. Anyway, the standard dilution for ZonalPro HQ Warmtone is 1:10, so the adage of the higher the dilution, the warmer the tones is true, though one must compensate for a commensurate loss of contrast. It also helps, I find, to keep the developer warm, at about 75 degrees. Sounds silly, perhaps, but it makes a difference.

Best,
Roger.

Forte Polywarmetone Plus, but no warm tones.

Marco Gilardetti

abeku

Marco Gilardetti

abeku

Marco Gilardetti

abeku

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Marco Gilardetti

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Marco Gilardetti

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timeUnit

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litwit

Forte Polywarmetone Plus, but no warm tones.

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