Formula for ClaytonF76+?

[RalphLambrecht]

I'm awre this is a bit silly of a question because this developer was designed to get a liquid D76-type developer and, at the same time, to get away from mixing powders. Still, it is supposedly using phenione as one of the development agents, which gives it unique properties that I like to try! Can you please share a formula for mixing it from bulk?

 

[John Wiegerink]

I'm awre this is a bit silly of a question because this developer was designed to get a liquid D76-type developer and, at the same time, to get away from mixing powders. Still, it is supposedly using phenione as one of the development agents, which gives it unique properties that I like to try! Can you please share a formula for mixing it from bulk?

Ralph,
I don't think you'll get an answer to your question. You might get a guess, but that's all. Claytons sells the stuff and I really don't think they want anything near their formula/recipe out in the publics hands. You know, "Trade secrets"!

 

[Paul Howell]

I've never seen a formula for any Clayton developer. For that matter no longer made Edwal has not released the formula for FG7. Seems that companies hold on propriety secrets even if no longer in production.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Ralph,
I don't think you'll get an answer to your question. You might get a guess, but that's all. Claytons sells the stuff and I really don't think they want anything near their formula/recipe out in the publics hands. You know, "Trade secrets"!

If that's the case, I'll patch it together from the MSDS eventually.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

If that's the case, I'll patch it together from the MSDS eventually.

already gathered that it is identical to D76 but uses phenidone in place of metol; just need to know in what ratio. 1:10 is my first guess.

 

[albada]

Replacing metol with phenidone would result in a PQ developer. According to this website:
http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/archive/index.php/t-682.html ,
the following formula is "an Ilford PQ version of ID-11."
Here's the formula:

Sodium Sulphite anhyd ..... 100 g
Hydroquinone .................... 5.0 g
Phenidone ......................... 0.2 g
Boric Acid .......................... 2.7 g
Borax ................................. 6.8 g
Potassium Bromide ........... 1.0 g

I removed the sequestering agent and related chemicals. Note that due to its containing both borax and boric acid, this formula buffers better than the original D-76, so pH-shift with age should not be a problem.

Mark

EDIT: If you change borax to 3g and boric acid to 3.5g, you will have the Ilford Replenishing Developer, which the FDC recommends instead of ID-68. But the lower pH (of 8.95) will need longer dev times.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

already gathered that it is identical to D76 but uses phenidone in place of metol; just need to know in what ratio. 1:10 is my first guess.

I wish you the best of luck. Clayton F76 is a concentrated liquid with dilutions of 1+9 through to 1+19, so it's highly concentrated. You will be better off buying a bottle to try.

 

[dynachrome]

I don't know what the availability of Clayton's products is in Europe. There are all kinds of restrictions when it comes to shipping liquid chemistry. Here on the East Coast of the U.S. I can get liquid chemistry easily from Freestyle in California with ground shipping but I can't get it from B&H in NY that way. If you can get someone to ship the stuff, do it before the weather gets too cold. Years ago a seller in Germany shipped me some liquid chemistry in the winter. When it got here, it was frozen solid. If I could get an old formula, I would want the one for Edwal FG-7. There are many good formulas for making phenidone based developers. Clayton F76 is indeed very nice but it doesn't keep well. It is more suitable for people who use it up quickly. It is partly for this reason that I keep a nice supply of metol and sodium sulfite. I can make up D-23 any time I need to.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

Hello. Ive used D76, F76+ and E76 (Phenidone/bórax version of D76).

I belive the only thing they have in common is the 76 part. All of them are pretty fine developer but consider them different beast.

My favorite one is F76+. Good luck with getting it replicated.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Here is the msds of F76+:

https://www.freestylephoto.com/static/pdf/msds/clayton/F76_Plus_JF.pdf

You can make the difficult to obtain potassium sulfite from potassium bisufite and potassium hydroxide (hazardous).
There could be an undisclosed small quantity of phenidone but NMP has a ring structure which does resemble phenidone though no NH. It is an alkaline solvent miscible with water.

 

[TomR55]

Some years ago, I read that F76+ was essentially FA-1127 (or some such thing), but even if this were the case (which is unlikely), I don’t think that the formula for FA-1127 is available either.

Hello. Ive used D76, F76+ and E76 (Phenidone/bórax version of D76).

I belive the only thing they have in common is the 76 part. All of them are pretty fine developer but consider them different beast.

My favorite one is F76+. Good luck with getting it replicated.

Agree with everything Marcelo posted, but with one addition: earlier in this thread (above), Albada posted a formula for D76 using Phenidone at 1/10 the quantity of Metol. did this many years ago (before F76+ was likely a commercial product). It did, indeed, produce descent negatives (mostly using the version of TriX that was current during the late 1990s), but it certainly was NOT Claytons F76+.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

Here is the msds of F76+:

https://www.freestylephoto.com/static/pdf/msds/clayton/F76_Plus_JF.pdf

You can make the difficult to obtain potassium sulfite from potassium bisufite and potassium hydroxide (hazardous).
There could be an undisclosed small quantity of phenidone but NMP has a ring structure which does resemble phenidone though no NH. It is an alkaline solvent miscible with water.

Well Clayton sells it as a phenidone based developer:

My guess is that since Phenidone is not that toxic, it is not included on MSDS?

Some years ago, I read that F76+ was essentially FA-1127 (or some such thing), but even if this were the case (which is unlikely), I don’t think that the formula for FA-1127 is available either.

Agree with everything Marcelo posted, but with one addition: earlier in this thread (above), Albada posted a formula for D76 using Phenidone at 1/10 the quantity of Metol. did this many years ago (before F76+ was likely a commercial product). It did, indeed, produce descent negatives (mostly using the version of TriX that was current during the late 1990s), but it certainly was NOT Claytons F76+.

True about the 1/10 percent phenidone-metol convesion, but I would say this works only on developers with two developers agents but not on ones when metol is the single developer (like D23).

Marcelo

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

By the way, Arista Premium Liquid Film Developer is F76+ on another package.

 

[Milpool]

If you read further into the SDS Phenidone is listed (along with other ingredients such as solvents, restrainers, chelating agents.

It is a PQ liquid concentrate with a relatively high pH, superficially appearing to have more in common with an HC-110 type.

Of course a list of ingredients and chemical properties does not necessarily mean it doesn’t ultimately produce similar results to D-76 - there are many ways to very similar endpoints - but strictly from a formulation perspective it’s strange to put “76” in the name.

You’re not going to be able to accurately reverse-engineer it from the SDS even if you acquire all the ingredients.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

If you read further into the SDS Phenidone is listed (along with other ingredients such as solvents, restrainers, chelating agents.

It is a PQ liquid concentrate with a relatively high pH, superficially appearing to have more in common with an HC-110 type.

Of course a list of ingredients and chemical properties does not necessarily mean it doesn’t ultimately produce similar results to D-76 - there are many ways to very similar endpoints - but strictly from a formulation perspective it’s strange to put “76” in the name.

You’re not going to be able to accurately reverse-engineer it from the SDS even if you acquire all the ingredients.

Agree about the 76 naming result/performance wise. In my experience, F76+ yields pretty different result from D-76. Different contrast and grain, IMHO.

 

[TomR55]

By the way, Arista Premium Liquid Film Developer is F76+ on another package.

Yes! And the Arista packaging provides smaller portions, approx. 300mL (12 oz) per bottles. I find this quantity more practical during “slow months” (such as summers in SW Florida because of the miserable rainy season). Generally, I get about two months of dependable use from one regular bottle—nearly 1 liter, 32 oz) of Claytons F76+ once opened. [I can get 6 to seven weeks from a partially filled bottle if I keep it in the fridge and allow it to reach processing temperature before diluting.]

 

[GLS]

NMP has a ring structure which does resemble phenidone though no NH. It is an alkaline solvent miscible with water.

NMP cannot act as a reducing agent. It is also not alkaline, as the nitrogen forms part of a cyclic amide (a lactam). I suspect its role here is merely to help solubilise the other components at higher concentration.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Maybe NMP could be left out. Possibly eg a half strength solution could made up from the msds estimates as NMP pH in solution is 8.5-10 which is close to the pH 9.7 of F76+. All the other ingredients are readily available. Phenidone dissolves in isopropanol.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

NMP cannot act as a reducing agent. It is also not alkaline, as the nitrogen forms part of a cyclic amide (a lactam). I suspect its role here is merely to help solubilise the other components at higher concentration.

not a chemistry expert, but that seems correct to me, since NMP is mostly used as solvent in other chemistry areas.

 

[GLS]

as NMP pH in solution is 8.5-10 which is close to the pH 9.7 of F76+

I have seen a similar pH range (8-10) quoted in some sources but I suspect it is an error or typo in the literature. Pubchem lists NMP as having a pH of 7.7-8, which is far more in line with what I would expect:

Methylpyrrolidone

Methylpyrrolidone | C5H9NO | CID 13387 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So yes, technically this is alkaline, but barely. Probably that slight alkalinity is due to trace amounts of N-methyl-4-aminobutyric acid formed via hydrolysis when dissolved in water. The sodium metaborate in the formulation will be the major contributor to the final pH, not the NMP.

 

[Alan Johnson]

It is rather unexpected if Sigma Aldrich are selling NMP quoting the wrong pH, but it appears that it is OK to leave it out of any homebrew in view of the metaborate.
p8 refers:

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/GB/en/sds/mm/8.06072?userType=anonymous

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Replacing metol with phenidone would result in a PQ developer. According to this website:
http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/archive/index.php/t-682.html ,
the following formula is "an Ilford PQ version of ID-11."
Here's the formula:

Sodium Sulphite anhyd ..... 100 g
Hydroquinone .................... 5.0 g
Phenidone ......................... 0.2 g
Boric Acid .......................... 2.7 g
Borax ................................. 6.8 g
Potassium Bromide ........... 1.0 g

I removed the sequestering agent and related chemicals. Note that due to its containing both borax and boric acid, this formula buffers better than the original D-76, so pH-shift with age should not be a problem.

Mark

EDIT: If you change borax to 3g and boric acid to 3.5g, you will have the Ilford Replenishing Developer, which the FDC recommends instead of ID-68. But the lower pH (of 8.95) will need longer dev times.

thank you very much. I bet this is very close. Your comments are also important and appreciated. For me, left is only the unknown super additive effect of hydroquinone and phenidone; that might cause fog!

 

[John Wiegerink]

Some years ago, I read that F76+ was essentially FA-1127 (or some such thing), but even if this were the case (which is unlikely), I don’t think that the formula for FA-1127 is available either.

Agree with everything Marcelo posted, but with one addition: earlier in this thread (above), Albada posted a formula for D76 using Phenidone at 1/10 the quantity of Metol. did this many years ago (before F76+ was likely a commercial product). It did, indeed, produce descent negatives (mostly using the version of TriX that was current during the late 1990s), but it certainly was NOT Claytons F76+.

Yes, I remember that and think I was in that discussion. I think it was FA-1027, but could be mistaken.

 

[Old_Dick]

Films and developer notes | Darkroom Solutions

This page contains a comprehensive list of equal films and developers. It also contains notes on current and outdated Kodak films as well as notes and fact sheets for several other developers and films.

darkroom-solutions.com

FA-1027 Film Developer

Developer Film FA-1027 Darkroom Chemical

stores.photoformulary.com

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Yes, I remember that and think I was in that discussion. I think it was FA-1027, but could be mistaken.

I'm going to give it a try!