Format for Saving Scans of Negatives

[Daniel Balfour]

I use a Nikon LS-9000 ED to scan 35mm & MF negs (B/W film). I scan the negs in 16-bit grayscale and save to TIF. The resulting files are between 50-180mb in size, depending on the negative format & level of detail. However, when I open these files in Photoshop, edit (layers, channels, masks, etc) and resave, the files can go up to 2 GIGS in size!

I save in TIF format without compression. Should I be saving to PSD? These enormous file sizes are unworkable.

What am I doing wrong?

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I usually save in TIF with LZW compression. LZW is lossless.

 

[donbga]

I use a Nikon LS-9000 ED to scan 35mm & MF negs (B/W film). I scan the negs in 16-bit grayscale and save to TIF. The resulting files are between 50-180mb in size, depending on the negative format & level of detail. However, when I open these files in Photoshop, edit (layers, channels, masks, etc) and resave, the files can go up to 2 GIGS in size!

I save in TIF format without compression. Should I be saving to PSD? These enormous file sizes are unworkable.

What am I doing wrong?

I always save layered files as PSD or PSB files. These can get quite large. When I'm ready to print I'll flatten the files, resize, sharpen, convert to 8 bit and output to the print driver or to a RIP.

But you may wish to consider a Guide File workflow.

Read on:

http://www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/info/photoshoptip/podcast_guidefile.html

Don Bryant

 

[Ray Heath]

g'day daniel

why such big files?

how large do you intend to print?

 

[Daniel Balfour]

I always save layered files as PSD or PSB files. These can get quite large. When I'm ready to print I'll flatten the files, resize, sharpen, convert to 8 bit and output to the print driver or to a RIP.

But you may wish to consider a Guide File workflow.

Read on:

http://www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/info/photoshoptip/podcast_guidefile.html

Don Bryant

Don,

GREAT VID! You rock!

I would recommend this to ANYONE that's had the same problem (oversized files).

For what it does lack, I'd probably contemplate working in PSD and see how that works out for me.

The only alternative would be getting hold of a Mac Pro with 8 Gigs/Ram & Quad processor. Slightly out of my (financial) reach at the moment.

Thanks!

 

[Daniel Balfour]

One other point of interest...

The workflow demonstrated in the video is great if all your needs are accomplished using adjustment layers. But most people aren't exclusive to curves/maks for dodging and burning. And that's without getting into cosmetic retouching and structural rearrangement of images.

Here's what I'd suggest:

1) Follow the guide-file workflow in the video for general adjustments. By "general adjustments" I mean non pixel-altering edits like the kind you achieve by way of photoshop's adjustment layers.

2) When you're ready to make pixel-altering edits, complete the guide-file workflow and then merge your edits to a new file and work from there, rather then building additional layers in the current file.

This doesn't eliminate the large file sizes (100+ mb) but should keep file sizes limited to something manageable. I can work with 100-200mb files, but over a gig and things get really out of hand.

Hope this helps!

 

[donbga]

One other point of interest...

The workflow demonstrated in the video is great if all your needs are accomplished using adjustment layers. But most people aren't exclusive to curves/maks for dodging and burning. And that's without getting into cosmetic retouching and structural rearrangement of images.

Here's what I'd suggest:

1) Follow the guide-file work flow in the video for general adjustments. By "general adjustments" I mean non pixel-altering edits like the kind you achieve by way of photoshop's adjustment layers.

2) When you're ready to make pixel-altering edits, complete the guide-file work flow and then merge your edits to a new file and work from there, rather then building additional layers in the current file.

This doesn't eliminate the large file sizes (100+ mb) but should keep file sizes limited to something manageable. I can work with 100-M files, but over a gig and things get really out of hand.

Hope this helps!

Daniel,

You most can certainly do dodging & burning with adjustment layers!

Here is how.

1) First make sure your default color is black and white.
2) Choose the brush tool.
3) Create a new layer above the background layer. When the new layer dialog opens change the mode from Normal to Soft Light. Turn on the Fill with 50% grey check box and click OK.

You can now lighten or darken any area in the print with much greater control than with the dodge and burn tool which I never use and use the brush size or type you need. You simply paint with the brush. You can also dork around with the brush mode but I usually leave it set to normal. This is a great tip written up in Dan Burkholder's second book. This technique is very powerful and you can create multiple dodge and burn layers if you need to and change the opacity of the layer, brush, and fill percentage. You can also dodge and burn in color but that is a different technique. Another nice thing is that you can turn the layer on and off to look at the changes you have made. If you don't like it, delete the layer and start over.

BTW, the new version of PS - CS4 provides an adjustment layer for use with the dodge and burn tool and is much more flexible. I've been using the above technique for years now to dodge and burn and once you have used it you won't go back.

Using these adjustment layer techniques you can experiment and feel confident that you undo your work.

Speaking of Dan Burkholder his Tiny Tutorials are invaluable for the PS illiterate such as me.

Don

 

[Daniel Balfour]

Don,

Some thoughts...

Daniel,

You most can certainly do dodging & burning with adjustment layers!

Here is how.

1) First make sure your default color is black and white.
2) Choose the brush tool.
3) Create a new layer above the background layer. When the new layer dialog opens change the mode from Normal to Soft Light. Turn on the Fill with 50% grey check box and click OK.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that doesn't seem to use adjustment layers, and the Guide File workflow (1st video) states that you can use only adjustment layers taken from the adjustment layers menu (and not ordinary layers).

I D/B all the time using a standard layer in overlay mode, with 50% gray fill. I'm guessing soft light would work well for b/w images but for color images it would require an additional HSL layer to bring down the reds.

BTW, the new version of PS - CS4 provides an adjustment layer for use with the dodge and burn tool and is much more flexible. I've been using the above technique for years now to dodge and burn and once you have used it you won't go back.

I've got CS4 as well, where did you find that "D/B Adjustment Layer" option?

 

[donbga]

Don,

Some thoughts...



Correct me if I'm wrong but that doesn't seem to use adjustment layers, and the Guide File workflow (1st video) states that you can use only adjustment layers taken from the adjustment layers menu (and not ordinary layers).

I D/B all the time using a standard layer in overlay mode, with 50% gray fill. I'm guessing soft light would work well for b/w images but for color images it would require an additional HSL layer to bring down the reds.



I've got CS4 as well, where did you find that "D/B Adjustment Layer" option?

Yes Daniel my bad there, you qre correct, what I was describing doesn't work on the guide image, Never the less it does work well and it isn't an adjustment layer either, again mea culpa.

And yes this method with soft light fill is for monochrome only.

And to top it off I was wrong again about the new dodge burn feature in CS4.

So you see you should never trust a thing I say !

Don

 

[Daniel Balfour]

Yes Daniel my bad there, you qre correct, what I was describing doesn't work on the guide image, Never the less it does work well and it isn't an adjustment layer either, again mea culpa.

And yes this method with soft light fill is for monochrome only.

And to top it off I was wrong again about the new dodge burn feature in CS4.

So you see you should never trust a thing I say !

Don

No such thing! I've read many of your posts and any assault on your credibility will be met with wholesome objection!

The sad truth is that there's so much technostuff going around that it's hard to keep track. I remember reading a post somewhere about a dodge/burn adjustment layer in the planning for CS4. I guess it never made it? Maybe you came across similar information.

All things considered, I take it my revised workflow suggestions still stand?

 

[sanking]

My normal work procedure is to scan at the highest resolution practical, do all corrections in Photoshop at that resolution, and then save as a TIFF file.

From the saved TIFF file I can quickly re-size as needed.

Sandy

 

[Daniel Balfour]

My normal work procedure is to scan at the highest resolution practical, do all corrections in Photoshop at that resolution, and then save as a TIFF file.

From the saved TIFF file I can quickly re-size as needed.

Sandy

Sandy,

I wonder what kind of system you're working on? A 6x6 neg scanned at 4000dpi/16-bit can easily produce a file that is over 200mb in size (and I'm talking grayscale here). Add layers and you could easily top a gig!

I'm on a MacBook Pro with 4 gigs of RAM. I can only guess that a Mac Pro with 8+ gigs/RAM would be able to "work" with files that big at a pace that's even remotely manageable.

YMMV I guess

 

[sanking]

Guess I am just patient. Although my main computer is a 24" Intel iMac with 3gig of RAM, and I also have a MacBook with 4 gig of RAM, all of my scanning is done on a Scitex EverSmart Pro with dedicated MAC G4 that has less than 2mb of RAM. With this combination I do not have any problem in scanning files up to about 1 gig in size, though it takes a fair amount of time. I usually scan at twice the optical resolution, then immediately downsize to 1/2 that size.

I then transport the files over to the iMAC and do final work on them there. Unlike Don I don't save files with layers. I flatten everything before a final save and after doing all of the corrections and tonal manipulations I consider necessary.

Sandy King

Sandy,

I wonder what kind of system you're working on? A 6x6 neg scanned at 4000dpi/16-bit can easily produce a file that is over 200mb in size (and I'm talking grayscale here). Add layers and you could easily top a gig!

I'm on a MacBook Pro with 4 gigs of RAM. I can only guess that a Mac Pro with 8+ gigs/RAM would be able to "work" with files that big at a pace that's even remotely manageable.

YMMV I guess

 

[donbga]

No such thing! I've read many of your posts and any assault on your credibility will be met with wholesome objection!

The sad truth is that there's so much technostuff going around that it's hard to keep track. I remember reading a post somewhere about a dodge/burn adjustment layer in the planning for CS4. I guess it never made it? Maybe you came across similar information.

All things considered, I take it my revised workflow suggestions still stand?

Hello Daniel,

I had mentioned that you can dodge and burn using a soft light layer and it does work for color images as well as black and white.

Don

 

[donbga]

Unlike Don I don't save files with layers. I flatten everything before a final save and after doing all of the corrections and tonal manipulations I consider necessary.

Sandy King

I also save all of my layers in a PSD/PSB file as well as any selections I create no matter how trivial. This does consume more disk space but it offers me the opportuniity to change edits easily.

Over the past year or so I've been working with very large files created from 4x5 stitched files. My PC has a 64 bit AMD Turion processor and 4 G of memory with a dedicated 250 G swap disk so performance is pretty snappy.

Don Bryant