Fomadon LQN - calculating additional development time

Daniela · Apr 9, 2023

I've been using the developer at 1+10 dilution. In the bottle (but not on the data sheet), there's this:

It is possible to process more films in the used solution by extension of the development time.

However, there are no further instructions in regards to how to calculate the additional time. Does anyone know how to go about that or where to find further information? Their website doesn't seem to have any.
Thank you!

Doremus Scudder · Apr 9, 2023

The old directions for D-76 suggested adding 10% for the next batch of film through the same developer at stock dilution (not 1+1 or weaker, which should be used one-shot). That was good for one more use, no more.

So, you could use that 10% as a starting point with a test roll and see if you get acceptable results.

However, developer is fairly inexpensive and you're using a 1+10 dilution anyway, maybe just not try to reuse developer that may be too exhausted to really give you good results. I likely wouldn't.

Best,

Doremus

Daniela · Apr 10, 2023

Doremus Scudder said:
The old directions for D-76 suggested adding 10% for the next batch of film through the same developer at stock dilution (not 1+1 or weaker, which should be used one-shot). That was good for one more use, no more.

So, you could use that 10% as a starting point with a test roll and see if you get acceptable results.

However, developer is fairly inexpensive and you're using a 1+10 dilution anyway, maybe just not try to reuse developer that may be too exhausted to really give you good results. I likely wouldn't.

Best,

Doremus

I know that developer is inexpensive, but why throw it away when it can be reused according to the manufacturer? I'll keep searching, and have reached out to Foma, since I can't really afford to potentially mess up film for testing.
Thank you for your reply!

MattKing · Apr 10, 2023

Re-using developer may involve compromises as to quality and consistency. Some datasheets warn about that, while others do not.
Using developer in a replenishment regime means that one is knowingly using a developer whose characteristics have changed, but if done carefully, the change is consistent and repeatable.

Daniela · Apr 10, 2023

MattKing said:
Re-using developer may involve compromises as to quality and consistency. Some datasheets warn about that, while others do not.
Using developer in a replenishment regime means that one is knowingly using a developer whose characteristics have changed, but if done carefully, the change is consistent and repeatable.

Thank you for pointing this out.
Since I'm at the "As-long-as-I-get-images-I'm-good" point in my practice, I'm not particularly worried about consistency and/or being able to replicate results. I know this probably amounts to a sin for most members here , but it is what it is.
I do find the lack of information from Foma frustrating. I've seen the same issue with other products. Let's see if they answer!

MattKing · Apr 10, 2023

Daniela said:
Thank you for pointing this out.
Since I'm at the "As-long-as-I-get-images-I'm-good" point in my practice, I'm not particularly worried about consistency and/or being able to replicate results. I know this probably amounts to a sin for most members here , but it is what it is.
I do find the lack of information from Foma frustrating. I've seen the same issue with other products. Let's see if they answer!

In your shoes, I would be most worried about getting results that are inexplicable due to the fact that I didn't properly account for the inconsistencies that re-using developer can sometimes cause. The advantage of consistency isn't so much that the negatives will be better - even though they may very well be - but rather because the learning experience will be better - and quicker!

Daniela · Apr 10, 2023

MattKing said:
In your shoes, I would be most worried about getting results that are inexplicable due to the fact that I didn't properly account for the inconsistencies that re-using developer can sometimes cause.

Sure! Since I haven't had any negative surprises (ha!) in my messy and disorganized approach so far, I tend to continue this way. I think it will take a big deception to change my approach. I know that others may find taking this risk ridiculous...

The advantage of consistency isn't so much that the negatives will be better - even though they may very well be - but rather because the learning experience will be better - and quicker!

Now this relates more to my motivation behind doing photography at this point. The learning I'm seeking is more related to myself than to the medium. I see how this could potentially (and hopefully!) evolve towards learning about the technical aspects to better serve what I want to express. Right now, I search, discover and capture...and what a treat it is to finally be able to do so

foc · Apr 10, 2023

The instructions on the Fomadon LQN bottle are confusing and the website doesn't really help.

I have a bottle of LQN but haven't used it yet.

It is very confusing as the bottle label states dilution of 1+10 & 1+14 but gives the times for just 1+10. I did a little research and found the times for both 1+10 & 1+14

The bottle label also has the f= extension factor, see below.

This example has the F = 1.4 where as the bottle I have the F=1.5, F1.4, F1.7 so all very confusing.

My understanding (and I stand to be corrected) is that you mix the developer (1+10 or 1+14) as one shot developer and you would normally discard the chemical.

For example, 2 Fomapan 100 films in a tank (capacity 600ml) LQN at 1+14 is 40ml chemical, 560ml water, all at @20C for 9-10 minutes.

If I had a second tank of 2 Fomapan 100 films I could then reuse the developer solution of 600ml from the first tank (immediately) but the times would 9-10 minutes multiplied by (F) 1.4 so the extended time would be 12mins 36 sec to 14 mins.

My guess would be that you could only do that once and to be honest I wouldn't trust it.

If it was me developing the films I would just use the developer as a one shot and forget about the extension times. It is not an expensive developer so why try and scrimp and save?

Daniela · Apr 10, 2023

foc said:
The instructions on the Fomadon LQN bottle are confusing and the website doesn't really help.

I have a bottle of LQN but haven't used it yet.

It is very confusing as the bottle label states dilution of 1+10 & 1+14 but gives the times for just 1+10. I did a little research and found the times for both 1+10 & 1+14

View attachment 335387

The bottle label also has the f= extension factor, see below.

View attachment 335388

This example has the F = 1.4 where as the bottle I have the F=1.5, F1.4, F1.7 so all very confusing.

My understanding (and I stand to be corrected) is that you mix the developer (1+10 or 1+14) as one shot developer and you would normally discard the chemical.

For example, 2 Fomapan 100 films in a tank (capacity 600ml) LQN at 1+14 is 40ml chemical, 560ml water, all at @20C for 9-10 minutes.

If I had a second tank of 2 Fomapan 100 films I could then reuse the developer solution of 600ml from the first tank (immediately) but the times would 9-10 minutes multiplied by (F) 1.4 so the extended time would be 12mins 36 sec to 14 mins.

My guess would be that you could only do that once and to be honest I wouldn't trust it.

If it was me developing the films I would just use the developer as a one shot and forget about the extension times. It is not an expensive developer so why try and scrimp and save?

Thank you for such a thorough response!

I completely missed that f was the extension time between the tiny writing on the bottle and all the writing in Czech

I also read somewhere that most 400 ASA films need between 9 and 10mins of development, so I've been doing 9 1/2 minutes (that was the user-added listed time on the Dev it! app) for APX 400 and I get negatives that need a #3 filter to begin with when printing, which is consistent with the soft contrast advertised about this developer. I've actually liked printing them a lot.

FYI: according to this website, the 1+14 dilution should only be used for 100 ASA film.

I get what you say about the minuscule potential savings, but I look at it this way: if the manufacturer says it can be done, why be wasteful? Having said that, I'm not gonna mess with it because I'd be messing with the film too, and that is expensive!

Doremus Scudder · Apr 10, 2023

The "f" extension factor seems to be what you multiply the time for development at the 1+10 dilution in order to get the development time for the 1+14 dilution. I don't think it has to do with extending time for reusing the developer.

Doremus

foc · Apr 11, 2023

Doremus Scudder said:
The "f" extension factor seems to be what you multiply the time for development at the 1+10 dilution in order to get the development time for the 1+14 dilution. I don't think it has to do with extending time for reusing the developer.

Doremus

Yes, I thought that too but when you do that you don't get the same time as in the chart.

EG, the chart says Fomapan 100 in 1+10 is 7-8 mins.
The chart says Fomadon 100 in 1+14 is 9-10 mins

7 mins x 1.4 = 9 min 48 sec. 8 mins x 1.4 = 11 mins 12 sec

It is all very confusing.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 11, 2023

Maybe you're right. At any rate, the increase of time for reusing developer is a bit of a crap shoot anyway. The amount of exhaustion of the developer depends on the amount of exposed silver halides that get developed the first time through. That can vary widely from roll to roll. Overexposed roll of snow shots? Lots of exhaustion. Underexposed black cat in the coal mine shots? Much less exhaustion.

If you really want consistency, use one-shot or replenish.

Doremus

Daniela · Apr 11, 2023

Doremus Scudder said:
Underexposed black cat in the coal mine shots?

I should be safe reusing it, then

If Foma cares to reply to me, I'll copy and paste their response here.
Thanks for your help!

foc · Apr 11, 2023

Daniela said:
If Foma cares to reply to me, I'll copy and paste their response here.

Look forward to seeing that, thanks.

Daniela · Apr 15, 2023

I received this reply from Foma:

Let us respond to you that the lengthening factors for developing our FOMAPAN films in FOMADON LQN (1+10) are mentioned on 9th page of our photo catalogue (attached).

We confirm that you can develop 12 pcs of the perforated films (or 120 rolls) without any change of the recommended developing time. From 13th film you should use the mentioned lengthening factor for each successive film, in maximum to double quantity, i.e. 24 pcs in total. You should make this developing immediately, without some bigger delay. The working solution can be used 2-3 hours from mixing.

In case that you will divide the concentrate to more parts, please, take care of minimizing an access of air to the remaining developer, e.g. pouring into smaller bottle, using glass/ceramic bowls or anti-oxygen spray.

So, @foc had it right!

foc · Apr 15, 2023

Thank you @Daniela for the compliment but more importantly, thanks for the update.

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