Fomabrom Variant III Emulsion Flaking

[logan2z]

I’ve wanted to try Fomabrom Variant III for a very long time as I’ve heard great things about it. I’ve also heard stories of the emulsion being very fragile and even flaking off the paper base, but that was in old threads and I assumed that was no longer a problem. I was wrong.

I just made my first test strip with this paper and put it into a water bath immediately after fixing it and the water quickly filled up with black flakes. I could see that the emulsion at the paper's cut edge was flaking off, which I’d heard about before. I gently touched the surface of the paper away from the cut edge and the emulsion came right off on my finger! I would have assumed that I simply had a defective batch of paper if I hadn’t read older forum threads describing something similar.

I’ve never had anything like this happen in all the years I’ve used Ilford MG Fiber paper. What a huge disappointment.

 

[GregY]

I’ve wanted to try Fomabrom Variant III for a very long time as I’ve heard great things about it. I’ve also heard stories of the emulsion being very fragile and even flaking off the paper base, but that was in old threads and I assumed that was no longer a problem. I was wrong.

I just made my first test strip with this paper and put it into a water bath immediately after fixing it and the water quickly filled up with black flakes. I could see that the emulsion at the paper's cut edge was flaking off, which I’d heard about before. I gently touched the surface of the paper away from the cut edge and the emulsion came right off on my finger! I would have assumed that I simply had a defective batch of paper if I hadn’t read older forum threads describing something similar.

I’ve never had anything like this happen in all the years I’ve used Ilford MG Fiber paper. What a huge disappointment.

I've only ever had that happen with a particular batch of Lodima contact printing paper....never with Foma Variant and i've used a lot of it & still have stock.

 

[logan2z]

I've only ever had that happen with a particular batch of Lodima contact printing paper....never with Foma Variant and i've used a lot of it & still have stock.

Maybe I was just unlucky.

 

[koraks]

I've not seen this happen despite having printed quite a lot on this paper.

 

[mshchem]

That sounds kinda crazy. I've never seen this sorta thing.

Did you use very warm water???

For the emulsion to be so soft would indicate warm even strong alkaline or acidic conditions, possibly wasn't hardened properly at the factory?

 

[logan2z]

That sounds kinda crazy. I've never seen this sorta thing.

Did you use very warm water???

For the emulsion to be so soft would indicate warm even strong alkaline or acidic conditions, possibly wasn't hardened properly at the factory?

The water and chemistry were at room temperature.

I’m guessing some sort of manufacturing problem.

I purchased the paper at Freestyle and I’m working with them to try and figure out the source of the problem.

 

[koraks]

I'd contact Foma and describe the problem to them. They may ask you to send them a sample of the affected product and they will probably ask to send them the manufacturing batch code printed on the paper box/envelope.

 

[logan2z]

I'd contact Foma and describe the problem to them. They may ask you to send them a sample of the affected product and they will probably ask to send them the manufacturing batch code printed on the paper box/envelope.

I could reach out to Foma, but I figured I’d start with the retailer and Freestyle has been very responsive. They did ask for photos and the batch number from the envelope.

 

[Milpool]

I could reach out to Foma, but I figured I’d start with the retailer and Freestyle has been very responsive. They did ask for photos and the batch number from the envelope.

Let us know what happens. That is a bummer for sure... as it happens I just bought a few packages of several different Foma papers to try for the first time (including Variant) so I wonder how that will go.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Might want to try a hardening fixer or a separate hardening bath.

Kodak's hardener formula is made from acetic acid (vinegar), boric acid (ant poison) and alum (pickling powder). All available at the grocery store - though you might have to visit the hardware store for the boric acid.

 

[brbo]

Posting batch number here probably wouldn’t hurt.

Maybe somebody here has paper from the same batch…

 

[mshchem]

I remember processing Ektachrome with E-3 and E-4, old Ektachrome-X, you could scrape off the wet emulsion with your fingernail.

This shouldn't be happening that's for certain, doubt there's anything that the end user can do to fix it.

 

[logan2z]

Below is a photo of the flaking emulsion. It occurred on both the trimmed and untrimmed edge of the paper strip:

And here is a photo of the (partially mangled) label on the package of paper. It shows what I believe is the batch number, but the label got damaged when opening the package. Hopefully there's enough of the number visible to be useful to someone.

 

[logan2z]

Let us know what happens.

Will do. I sent some photos to Freestyle this morning and I'm awaiting a response.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Below is a photo of the flaking emulsion. It occurred on both the trimmed and untrimmed edge of the paper strip:

And here is a photo of the (partially mangled) label on the package of paper. It shows what I believe is the batch number, but the label got damaged when opening the package. Hopefully there's enough of the number visible to be useful to someone.

total wet time of the paper?

 

[logan2z]

total wet time of the paper?

1 minute pre-wet
3 minutes development time
30 seconds stop bath
2 minutes fixer

Total wet time: 6m 30s

That's the exact same process I use with Ilford MG Fiber. And then I wash the Ilford paper for 60 minutes and have never had its emulsion flake off. The Foma paper flaked at the 6m 30s mark, before I even had a chance to wash it.

 

[koraks]

Wow, I've never seen that happen on any commercially produced paper. This is definitely not normal for Fomabrom.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

1 minute pre-wet
3 minutes development time
30 seconds stop bath
2 minutes fixer

Total wet time: 6m 30s

That's the exact same process I use with Ilford MG Fiber. And then I wash the Ilford paper for 60 minutes and have never had its emulsion flake off. The Foma paper flaked at the 6m 30s mark, before I even had a chance to wash it.

why the pre-wet?
It's hard for me to tell if it's the paper, the chemicals, the temperature etc...

 

[GregY]

Wow, I've never seen that happen on any commercially produced paper. This is definitely not normal for Fomabrom.

That's pretty much the same result i got with a particular batch of Lodima.

 

[logan2z]

why the pre-wet?

I just started to use drums instead of trays and decided to pre-wet the paper so that it would be uniformly adhered to the inside of the drum before developing. It's probably not necessary, but I don't think it's the source of the flaking issue. Hasn't caused any problem with Ilford fiber paper.

It's hard for me to tell if it's the paper, the chemicals, the temperature etc...

I'm using pretty standard chemistry: Ethol LPD developer, Kodak Indicator Stop Bath, Ilford Rapid Fixer - all the same chemistry I've been using for ages with Ilford MG Fiber paper. As I mentioned earlier, all processing was done using room temperature water, which is approximately 70 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Wow. That is impressive. Does the emulsion come away if you scrape it with your fingernail?

The Ilford web site says of Rapid Fixer: "Not compatible with hardeners." Ref. https://www.ilfordphoto.com/rapid-fixer-product

You might try a fixer that does incorporate a hardener. But to my mind the paper is defective and there isn't much to gain by trying to correct the situation.

If it were me I would try and get my money back and move on to a different paper.

Interesting thread though.

 

[logan2z]

Wow. That is impressive. Does the emulsion come away if you scrape it with your fingernail?

I didn't even need to use my fingernail. Just rubbing it gently wearing a nitrile glove was all it took to remove the emulsion - while the paper was wet, of course.

The Ilford web site says of Rapid Fixer: "Not compatible with hardeners." Ref. https://www.ilfordphoto.com/rapid-fixer-product

You might try a fixer that does incorporate a hardener. But to my mind the paper is defective and there isn't much to gain by trying to correct the situation.

Yeah, I've asked Freestyle for a refund. OTOH, if this is just an anomaly due to a bad batch, I'd be willing to swap the defective box for another and give it a try again.

If it were me I would try and get my money back and move on to a different paper.

I've been using Ilford MG Fiber for years and have been happy with it, so it's no problem for me to just continue using it. But I'd heard good things about Fomabron Variant III here and elsewhere and thought it would be fun to give something new a try. But maybe if it ain't broke...

 

[GregY]

I didn't even need to use my fingernail. Just rubbing it gently wearing a nitrile glove was all it took to remove the emulsion - while the paper was wet, of course.



Yeah, I've asked Freestyle for a refund. OTOH, if this is just an anomaly due to a bad batch, I'd be willing to swap the defective box for another and give it a try again.



I've been using Ilford MG Fiber for years and have been happy with it, so it's no problem for me to just continue using it. But I'd heard good things about Fomabron Variant III here and elsewhere and thought it would be fun to give something new a try. But maybe if it ain't broke...

As mentioned before, I've used Foma FB paper since the demise of Forte (2007-8?) & never had any issues. The only Ilford paper that I like as much as Foma is Warmtone FB. I hope you do give it a try again since you deal with Freestyle and they have better stock than B&H

 

[Milpool]

Just for fun (a long shot) I wonder if it would be worth trying regular tray processing just to rule out something this paper doesn’t like about the drum.

 

[logan2z]

Just for fun (a long shot) I wonder if it would be worth trying regular tray processing just to rule out something this paper doesn’t like about the drum.

I thought about that too, although I'm not sure what it wouldn't like about drum processing. Seems equally gentle on the paper. And I just switched from trays to drums, so if this paper doesn't like it then I don't like this paper