FOMA liquid emulsion problem

[Dan Dozer]

I haven't done anything with liquid emulsion for about 3 years and wanted to try it again. I have some old Foma Liquid Emulsion that has been stored in the refrigerator all that time, but I was concerned that it might not be good any more. Been doing some test prints that past couple of days. The coating is working fine and the prints look very nice. However, as the print is soaking in the cold water wash, the emulsion starts to come off the paper. In warming up the wash water, it gets much worse and the emulsion just disolves before my eyes. Obviously, something is wrong and it's loosing it's adherence to the paper. Have never had this problem before.

Does anyone know what might be causing this? Maybe it's just because the emulsion is old and I should just throw it out and buy some new stuff.

 

[removed account4]

hi dan

i have had liquid light that had problems like that. the way i "fixed" it was by doing tests with coating the paper with gelatin.
i used unflavored knox gelatin but then started to use photo grade gelatin gotten from one a chemical supplier.
i wouldn't dump the emulsion yet

 

[Dan Dozer]

This is confusing because I'm not using paper that I haven't done this with before,and the images in the prints look great until the emulsion starts flaking off. Today I did it with Bergger COT 320 and had the same issue. I'm thinking on trying to size the paper with Gelatin, but am a little reluctant because it is just one additional step in the process that is already a long one to begin with (doing bromoils).

Emil - are you out there? You know more about the FOMA emulsion and bromoils than just about anyone.

 

[tezzasmall]

This is confusing because I'm not using paper that I haven't done this with before,and the images in the prints look great until the emulsion starts flaking off.

Emil - are you out there? You know more about the FOMA emulsion and bromoils than just about anyone.

Whilst starting out to use LE, I found the cheaper papers were worse at holding onto the emulsion. More expensive watercolour papers were better but some didn't hold the LE on either.

I then discovered that by adding a minute pinch of hardener into the small amount of LE and water that I was warming up in the darkroom, overcame this problem. It does mean that the prints need a very good wash though, as the emulsion has been hardened somewhat.

I'm willing to be corrected on this, but I eventually got some lovely purple crystal Potassium Alum to use and the problem stopped. But, I have since read that any alum will work. I have since purchased some straight alum, which is used for pickling vegetables, so it is easy to find and very cheap to buy. I can't vouch that it definitely will work though, as I haven't had chance to try it yet, but for the little cost, I would give it a go first.

And as for Emil, he doesn't seem to have been on the site since February 2016.

Terry S

 

[Peter Schrager]

While I have never used commercially available emulsions I do make my own for POP
you can add hardener to the emulsion or put it in the fix. my issues were were with washing and and having lift in the final wash. I have yet to redo the workflow
but will try adding hardener to the fix.
I also highly recommend a copy of the book SILVER GELATIN; A USER'S GUIDE TO LIQUID PHOTOGRAPHIC EMULSIONS
BY MARTIN REED AND SARAH JONES. It's an excellent reference guide

 

[removed account4]

OOPS !

Dan I didn't realize you weren't using a hardener or a hardened fix. i forgot all about it, it's the only thing i use hardener for, and its been a while ...
the emulsion that flaked off on me still needed extra gelatin to size the paper. you might contact PE or denise ross who know emulsions backwards and forwards to see what they suggest too.
good luck !
john
ps. if emil ( gandolfi ) doesn't respond to a PM here try him over on the LF site he's there once in a blue moon too.

 

[tezzasmall]

I also highly recommend a copy of the book SILVER GELATIN; A USER'S GUIDE TO LIQUID PHOTOGRAPHIC EMULSIONS
BY MARTIN REED AND SARAH JONES. It's an excellent reference guide

I bought a copy of this book many years ago now, and it is a book I return to regularly when doing LE work.

Now though, I believe even the latest printing of it, has sold out, so only second hand (expensive) copies are available. But, if a well priced copy comes up, I'd jump on it!

Terry S

 

[Dan Dozer]

OK - been thinking about this more and I think I have an answer. I have normally followed the instructions with the FOMA emulsion on how warm to heat it up for coating (around 120 - 130 degrees). Since I was just doing testing, I didn't worry about this and I know that it was heated up quite a bit more than that. When the emulsion was heated up higher, I had no problems with brush strokes and the prints look great, but I'm guessing this this also caused the problem of the emulsion flaking off during processing.

 

[Dan Dozer]

So, that didn't work and neither did sizing the paper. I'm thinking that either the emulsion has gone through the heat up process too many times or it's just to old and I need to order some new stuff.

 

[thefizz]

I coat the Bergger Cot320 paper with gelatin and hardener and then with Rollei liquid emulsion and hardener. Never had a problem.

 

[tezzasmall]

Dan, probably a bit late now for the LE that you've been using, but if you buy a new bottle, note this. ONLY heat up the amount of LE that you are going to use during a session. The recurring heating up of the full bottle, will very quickly ruin it!

I put some LE and a little water in a small jam jar in the darkroom, and then put the lid on. I then put this into a large jug, which has some very hot water in it. Very quickly the LE will become liquid and ready for putting on the paper - I use a brush for this.

Remember what I said earlier though about adding a tiny amount of hardener, in fact some sellers sell a small amount of hardener alongside the LE.

As for the current LE you have, I think it's now past its best and you'll have to invest in some fresh stuff. Just remember to keep it in the fridge when not using it.

Good luck.

Terry S

 

[M Carter]

As for the current LE you have, I think it's now past its best and you'll have to invest in some fresh stuff. Just remember to keep it in the fridge when not using it.

I've been working this week with FOMA liquid with an expiry date of 2014; been in the fridge and it's just fine, no changes in contrast or texture or coating ability. It's truly a fantastic product.

But yes, melt only what you need - use the provided hardener, and cool down your chems and wash water. The stuff can lift easily. And it needs to be 100% DRY before processing. Let it dry at least an hour - I put a fan on mine to speed it a bit. FOMA at least needs about 45°c to melt in 5-10 minutes (depending on quantity). I melt mine in a stainless developing tank sitting in a tray of water on a tray heater (using the tank, I can turn the lights on and do prep as it's melting). I get the water stabilized to 45° before I start the melting. For a 16x20 sheet, it takes about 12 minutes to melt the cold emulsion.

I've been using it on canvas, and I've found it lifts from gesso, and needs a coat of alkyd ground over any coats of gesso. Satin polyurethane also works, but it needs to be scuffed a bit for adhesion.

I've only used it on old fiber photo paper for tests and step wedge work; I just do 2 coats on the back side of the paper and never got any sort of lifting. (I don't fix the paper out or anything, tests like that aren't keepers).

BTW, the Liquitex "free style" brushes are great for LE, they come in several widths and you'd think they were designed for LE.