Foma Home Reversal Kit vs DR5

[pmviewcam]

To post #19: I have stuck with Foma's recommended development times as they seem to give much the same results for those films that I tried; close enough that differences were managed in enlargement. I haven't used Foma's reversal film as I have a lot of FP4, which is my preference. As I mentioned earlier, for me, exposure is critical.

 

[mshchem]

Seem to be having a little trouble with communication here, so I probably should have worded my question differently.

To clarify: For me, DR5 is a known quantity. Just now got back 4 more rolls. Good stuff; I am not questioning that. My question is not, "Is DR5 any good?" And my question is not, "What is the best way to process b&w positives?" I already know DR5 processing is good, which is why I chose them as the benchmark to compare Foma to. My question is really more about Foma, which I have not yet tried.

So, considering that additional information, can anyone answer my question based on their personal experiece:

What are the observable differences between a b&w slide processed with the Foma home reversal kit compared to the same film stock processed by DR5?

If no one here has tried both, no problem, I'll check out the Foma kit myself, and then I'll be able to form my own expert opinion

I've not tried either. This whole old school black and white cine film magic has my interest up. I think you will need to get a Foma Kit to find the answer to your actual question. I've got some research to do as well
Best Regards Mike

 

[runswithsizzers]

I've not tried either. This whole old school black and white cine film magic has my interest up. I think you will need to get a Foma Kit to find the answer to your actual question. I've got some research to do as well
Best Regards Mike

Scanning my first roll of Scala 160 right now (from DR5). They look good on the light table but have not yet seen them in Lightroom. I may get the Foma kit later, but presently occupied shooting 120 negs for a photo class at local university.

 

[mshchem]

Scanning my first roll of Scala 160 right now (from DR5). They look good on the light table but have not yet seen them in Lightroom. I may get the Foma kit later, but presently occupied shooting 120 negs for a photo class at local university.

I know DR5 talks about how well this scans. Have you tried projecting?

 

[runswithsizzers]

I know DR5 talks about how well this scans. Have you tried projecting?

Not yet. I need to find that box of mounts I have stashed away somewhere, and dig out my old Kodak Carousel!

I haven't made up my mind about the scans yet. Still learning how to expose and scan the chromes, but so far I'm not sure the extra quality is worth the extra time and money compared to scanning plain old negatives. I will know a lot more after I finish scanning/processing the 4 rolls I got back today. I just posted an example of Scala 160 <here>.

Oops! Just realized we are talking about scanning in an analog forum. I'm new here, but I think they take that seriously here, so I'll say no more about scans.

 

[mshchem]

Not yet. I need to find that box of mounts I have stashed away somewhere, and dig out my old Kodak Carousel!

I haven't made up my mind about the scans yet. Still learning how to expose and scan the chromes, but so far I'm not sure the extra quality is worth the extra time and money compared to scanning plain old negatives. I will know a lot more after I finish scanning/processing the 4 rolls I got back today. I just posted an example of Scala 160 <here>.

Oops! Just realized we are talking about scanning in an analog forum. I'm new here, but I think they take that seriously here, so I'll say no more about scans.

That's outstanding. Is that natural lighting or flash? Very nice range of tones.
I will mention scanning. I have had great results scanning slides. Negative films, color especially are a pain. I will let you get back to your work.
Best Mike

 

[dE fENDER]

When you say "[DR5 processing] will increase Dmax far beyond any usual b/w reversal processing" are you basing that on theory, or can you point to some actual evidence that demonstrates a higher D-max when Fomapan-R is developed in DR5 compared to Foma's chemistry? (And/or evidence of finer grain / smoother tones than Foma chemistry?)

For DMAX see http://www.dr5.com/ILFORDTEST.html and foma datasheet https://www.foma.cz/en/fomapan-R-100 (see that it will be lower than 3 for standard processing?
It is possible to get DMax > 3 on such emulsions only with chromogenic development (or with some special kinds of development/intensification, but they will be obvious).

For grain size and tones - see common literature (on English - Jacobson for example) for super fine grain development in SFG b/w developers with color developing agents, or samples with A49 developer and other such kind developers. I can provide a lot of russian literature, but I'm afraid it would be difficult and inconvenient to translate for you, just look for description of chromogenic intesification in english scientific literature.

For same effect with stain developers you can see for example - Haist, v1, p174-175 (about pyro).
Applied to the film in DR5 - see grain test here http://www.dr5.com/blackandwhiteslide/filmtests.html

And of course, I've did quite a lot of test by myself with chromogenic developers, using, for example CD-1, CD-2, CD-3, CD-4, CD-8, CD-32 + resorcinol, naptols, phenols, acetoacetanilids and other developers and couplers, both at films and papers, but I think it would be inappropriate to describe them in detail on the forum.

 

[AgX]

To post #19: I have stuck with Foma's recommended development times as they seem to give much the same results for those films that I tried; close enough that differences were managed in enlargement.

Why should one print a slide as standard procedure?
Maybe you mixed-up things and are talking about single-step, plain developers.

 

[removed account4]

Hi rws:

I am not sure where you live and if chemistry is readily available in your area ( Your profile location says so mo ) ... If you don't mind experimenting a little bit ... https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PBR/pbr.html some folks are using a rust remover called "rust out" as a fogging monobath developer...

 

[runswithsizzers]

For DMAX see http://www.dr5.com/ILFORDTEST.html and foma datasheet https://www.foma.cz/en/fomapan-R-100 (see that it will be lower than 3 for standard processing?
It is possible to get DMax > 3 on such emulsions only with chromogenic development (or with some special kinds of development/intensification, but they will be obvious).

For grain size and tones - see common literature (on English - Jacobson for example) for super fine grain development in SFG b/w developers with color developing agents, or samples with A49 developer and other such kind developers. I can provide a lot of russian literature, but I'm afraid it would be difficult and inconvenient to translate for you, just look for description of chromogenic intesification in english scientific literature.

For same effect with stain developers you can see for example - Haist, v1, p174-175 (about pyro).
Applied to the film in DR5 - see grain test here http://www.dr5.com/blackandwhiteslide/filmtests.html

And of course, I've did quite a lot of test by myself with chromogenic developers, using, for example CD-1, CD-2, CD-3, CD-4, CD-8, CD-32 + resorcinol, naptols, phenols, acetoacetanilids and other developers and couplers, both at films and papers, but I think it would be inappropriate to describe them in detail on the forum.

Thanks for sharing your considerable experience.

Unfortunately, my own experience is limited to basic b&w negative development, as a beginner. I have not yet studied all the various reversal methods, so it's not possible for me to make the connections between them.

So forgive the beginner's question, but, After reading DR5's test of the Ilford method - does that tell me something I should know about the Foma reversal chemistry?

In other words, Is the Ilford reversal chemistry essentially similar to the Foma reversal chemistry - and therefore the two methods have the same strengths and weaknesses?

 

[runswithsizzers]

That's outstanding. Is that natural lighting or flash? Very nice range of tones.
I will mention scanning. I have had great results scanning slides. Negative films, color especially are a pain. I will let you get back to your work.
Best Mike

Thank you. The lighting was ordinary midwestern weak winter sunlight at a low angle in late afternoon.

 

[removed account4]

The Ilford Method is here> http://www.silverprint.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Ilford-Reversal-Processing.pdf
and it uses Sulfuric Acid as part of the bleach step.
the MSDS of the Foma Kit is here >> https://www.freestylephoto.biz/static/pdf/msds/foma/FomaReversalKit.pdf

It seems that the 2 methods are different.

The link I posted previously doesn't use Sulfuric Acid but Sodium Bisulfate
I'm not sure what the Clearing Agent is in the Foma Kit but for the Ilford Kit it is the same as the link i provided Sodium Metabisulfite.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The DR5 process is well known for its reliability and quality. The other kits are known for some spectacular failures such as poor reversal and actual removal of the emulsion from some films. The DR5 process uses a unique chemistry that was acquired via experience and testing and does not match any kit currently available.

PE

 

[runswithsizzers]

Hi rws:

I am not sure where you live and if chemistry is readily available in your area ( Your profile location says so mo ) ... If you don't mind experimenting a little bit ... https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PBR/pbr.html some folks are using a rust remover called "rust out" as a fogging monobath developer...

Thanks for the link; I will file it for future reference. It may be that "so mo" is as incomprehensible to you as "paswonquitte" is to me? I am in southern Missouri, which puts me in the middle of the USA.

I'm collecting information about other reversal processing methods, but I won't start experimenting with other recipes until after I have tried the Foma reversal kit.

My assumption is that a beginner like me is more likely to get controlled, repeatable results from a kit that has been standardized by a large(ish) international company like Foma, which has the resources to test it, and enforce some kind of quality control.

I am also assuming that processing Fomapan R in chemistry made by Foma for that specific purpose should produce results at the higher end of the quality spectrum, compared to processing randomly selected films in various home recipe chemistries. But if someone can tell me they get better results from some other combination of film and reversal chemistry than they did after trying Fomapan R + the Foma reversal chemistry, I am all ears!!

Based on my assumptions, if I *don't* like the results I can get with Fomapan R + the Foma reversal kit - then I will have to decide if I want to continue use DR5 - or forget about positives and go back to home developing b&w negatives as negatives. If I *do* like the Foma results, then I may start experimenting with other d.i.y. reversal methods.

On the other hand, my assumptions may be incorrect, considering that both Ilford and Kodak once had reversal chemistries and both failed in the marketplace. I don't know if those failures were due to poor results, or other factors like low demand, toxic ingredients, or ?

 

[runswithsizzers]

The Ilford Method is here> http://www.silverprint.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Ilford-Reversal-Processing.pdf
and it uses Sulfuric Acid as part of the bleach step.
the MSDS of the Foma Kit is here >> https://www.freestylephoto.biz/static/pdf/msds/foma/FomaReversalKit.pdf

It seems that the 2 methods are different.

The link I posted previously doesn't use Sulfuric Acid but Sodium Bisulfate
I'm not sure what the Clearing Agent is in the Foma Kit but for the Ilford Kit it is the same as the link i provided Sodium Metabisulfite.

Ahh! Thanks again.

 

[Rudeofus]

In other words, Is the Ilford reversal chemistry essentially similar to the Foma reversal chemistry - and therefore the two methods have the same strengths and weaknesses?

In terms of chems these two should be comparable but not interchangeable. Ilford gives one FD time which somehow covers three of their films, although it works out to give you different contrast. Foma lists exposure recommendations and FD times for a few more film products and gives decent slides if done correctly. Therefore the difference is not so much technical performance, but how much you have to test and figure out on your own. Ilford's procedure incurs lower cost per roll, but gives you fewer data points to start with, and you have to get some raw chems that come prepackaged in the Foma kit.

 

[runswithsizzers]

If I wanted to start another thread about d.i.y (do it yoursellf, or at-home) b&w reversal methods, should I stick with this forum - or is reversal processing considered an "Alternative Process" ?

 

[runswithsizzers]

[...]Foma lists exposure recommendations and FD times for a few more film products [...].

So far I have not been able to find any guidance from Foma about developing anything other than Fomapan R in their reversal chemistry. Can you point me towards any references to recommendations for any other film products?

 

[Truzi]

I know your looking for a ready-made package, but this thread may be of some use:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/fompan-r100-reversal-first-developer.227/

 

[Photo Engineer]

If I wanted to start another thread about d.i.y (do it yoursellf, or at-home) b&w reversal methods, should I stick with this forum - or is reversal processing considered an "Alternative Process" ?

It is a "normal" B&W process and as such there are several threads already here in the archives.

You might try a search.

PE

 

[Anon Ymous]

... And of course, I've did quite a lot of test by myself with chromogenic developers, using, for example CD-1, CD-2, CD-3, CD-4, CD-8, CD-32 + resorcinol, naptols, phenols, acetoacetanilids and other developers and couplers, both at films and papers, but I think it would be inappropriate to describe them in detail on the forum.

Don't be shy, tell us a bit more of your tests. I'd be interested in some details about couplers that could give a neutral gray and the way one would use them in a developer. I suspect these couplers would be very hard to find, but it's an interesting topic nevertheless. Such methods could be used with already existing slides. One would need to use a rehalogenating bleach and redevelop in a developer containing a CD variant and coupler.

 

[Photo Engineer]

CD8 and CD32??? Interesting. Never heard of them.

Try looking at patents by D. Pupo of EK. He worked with Grant Haist and developed some of the early examples.

PE

 

[mshchem]

So is DR5 The "Kodachrome" of black and white reversal? I'm really intrigued. As soon as I can get outside without ice, snow, freezing drizzle, etc. I've got a "brand new" Bronica SQ-Ai 135W back (24 x 54 mm) . This will be a good test.

 

[Photo Engineer]

There are plenty of examples posted here in relevant threads.

PE

 

[Rudeofus]

CD8 and CD32??? Interesting. Never heard of them.

These seem to be terms for certain (now obsolete) color developers used in Eastern Europe. A description of these two can be found here.