Foma Home Reversal Kit vs DR5

runswithsizzers · Feb 20, 2019

This post is mostly for users in the USA. (Hope I am posting in the right forum.)

While there are several options for processing b&w film as positives / slides / chromes - the two I am most interested in right now are:
- the Foma Black and White Reversal Processing Kit <available here> and <here>
- and the DR5 lab, presently in Stuart, Iowa, which specializes in processing b&w films as positives; website <here>

Does anyone have recent experience with both the Foma home processing kit and the DR5 lab?

If so, how do the results compare?

SalveSlog · Feb 20, 2019

I guess you'll get optimal results from DR5. I haven't tried the Foma set, only home mixed chemicals. But I'm pretty sure that if I used it, it would be at least a bit suboptimal. That would probably mostly be my own fault.

mshchem · Feb 20, 2019

This is the 1st I've heard of DR5. I'm a darkroom person, so I would go the do it myself route.

destroya · Feb 20, 2019

if you are interested in the FOMA kit, that means doing it yourself, then search the forum and you will find many do it yourself recipes. the cost of 5 rolls of DR5 will get you quite a few more doing it yourself. Im not saying that DR5 is bad, im sure they get great results, its just that making your own solutions up is not hard, gets great results and saves a lot of money

removed account4 · Feb 20, 2019

DR5 is the best of the best. ... hands down.. even if someone have done various home kits ( tmax or foma &c ) ... there really is no comparison

runswithsizzers · Feb 20, 2019

jnantz said:
DR5 is the best of the best. ... hands down.. even if someone have done various home kits ( tmax or foma &c ) ... there really is no comparison

Are you saying you have developed film using the Foma kit and compared the results side-by-side to b&w slides processed by DR5?

Which film stocks, and can you be more specific about the differences - grain, contrast, shadow and highlight detail, etc?

Photo Engineer · Feb 20, 2019

From private information, IMHO DR5 is indeed the best of the best. Bar none!

PE

runswithsizzers · Feb 20, 2019

destroya said:
if you are interested in the FOMA kit, that means doing it yourself, then search the forum and you will find many do it yourself recipes. the cost of 5 rolls of DR5 will get you quite a few more doing it yourself. Im not saying that DR5 is bad, im sure they get great results, its just that making your own solutions up is not hard, gets great results and saves a lot of money

I have read many posts about users experiences with the Foma kit as well as the several other recipes, Kodak kit, Ilford kit, etc. But I did not see anyone directly comparing results from the Foma kit to what DR5 is producing.

runswithsizzers · Feb 20, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
From private information, IMHO DR5 is indeed the best of the best. Bar none!

PE

How so? That is, what kind of deficiencies can I expect to see in the Foma slides compared to the same filmstock processed by DR5?

There are some filmstocks that can not be successfully processed as positives by one or both methods, so the most fair comparison would be limited to Fomapan R.

I am not disputing that DR5 may be the best, but if a person did not want to wait 2 months to get a roll of film developed (true story), they might be willing sacrafice a certain amount of quality to gain expediency.

It may be that second best is good enough for me - that is what I am trying to find out.

runswithsizzers · Feb 20, 2019

jnantz said:
DR5 is the best of the best. ... hands down.. even if someone have done various home kits ( tmax or foma &c ) ... there really is no comparison

Surely, there must be some kind of comparison. How can someone say something is the best if it has never actually been compared to the competition?

mshchem · Feb 21, 2019

So DR5 can do something that can't be obtained from existing formulas or kits?? Do they have a proprietary process? My question is if I would bracket, same as I do with Fujichrome, and toss out the duds. What makes the DR5 unique?

runswithsizzers · Feb 21, 2019

mshchem said:
So DR5 can do something that can't be obtained from existing formulas or kits?? Do they have a proprietary process? My question is if I would bracket, same as I do with Fujichrome, and toss out the duds. What makes the DR5 unique?

Yes, they do have a proprietary process. As for "What makes the DR5 unique?" you might as well ask what's in the Colonel's secret recipe.

For exposure, first you need to use the DR5 recommended ISO which may be different from the manufacturer's box value. Study their website carefully - and good luck with that, it's a bit of a mess.

Expose it more like slide film, protecting the highlights - and not like you would normally expose b&w negatives (for the shadows). Based on my very limited experience (2 rolls, so far) exposure for dr5's processing may be a little more forgiving than color slide film, but with less room for error than the same film processed as a b&w negative.

pmviewcam · Feb 21, 2019

I've used the Foma kit a fair bit, and if you get the exposure correct, the results were definitely worth it. As the previous poster mentions, expose for the highlights, so with anything that needs detail, aim at an exposure for Zone VII/VII.5. Having said that, I had a particular workflow - reversal processing FP4/Tri-X/Foma100 in both 35mm, 120 and 4x5 sheet, then enlarging on to 10x8 wetplate, which needs a positive. The major issue is ascertaining what kind of contrast you want to achieve - in my case, wetplate has a contrast range of 4 zones (IV through VII) so I was aiming for a fairly flattish result.

Grain is not an issue at the enlargements I am making (10x8). FP4 is my preferred film stock: low grain, good shadow detail (within the limits set by the process), good contrast range, very tight on highlight detail (exposure has to be spot-on). I use a Jobo processor, so temperature and rotation is managed. Timing of development has been with the Foma recommendations - I think that exposure is more critical.

dE fENDER · Feb 21, 2019

mshchem said:
So DR5 can do something that can't be obtained from existing formulas or kits?? Do they have a proprietary process? My question is if I would bracket, same as I do with Fujichrome, and toss out the duds. What makes the DR5 unique?

They are using some kind of chromogenic intensification in DR5 like Kodachrome. It will increase Dmax far beyond any usual b/w reversal processing and as in staining developers, but in much more preferrable way - granular characteristics of the film (grain will be much less visible, tone will be much more smooth).

Rudeofus · Feb 21, 2019

The biggest difference between the Foma kit (or any home brew B&W reversal kit) and the DR5 offering is experience. If you process these films yourself, you are mostly out on your own regarding correct exposure and FD times except for a very limited set of films. The kit is intended for many rolls to be processed within a limited time frame, whereas home brew recipes can be mixed on a roll per roll bases.

So it basically depends on how many rolls will you want to process or have processed per year.If it's dozens, then the Foma kit is probably the best option until you gain experience, then you'll gradually replace bathes with home brew stuff until you can switch to 100% home brew for even higher cost savings. If you want to stick to the few emulsions listed in the kit or in home brew instructions, then you have at least a good starting point. If you run through only a few rolls per year, and/or want to use many different film products, then DR5 is probably the safest bet.

removed account4 · Feb 21, 2019

runswithsizzers said:
Surely, there must be some kind of comparison. How can someone say something is the best if it has never actually been compared to the competition?

DR5 has been doing the same since 1991. They have exposure recommendations on their website for nearly every film made today or yesterday. They are available for consultation if you have questions, Dave Wood has a business with a reputation made from decades of experience and decades of extremely happy customers. No I have not used the Foma Kit, it wouldn't be worth it to me to use the kit and potentially screw up my film because of my lack of experience with their kit and lack of experience on the best way to expose the film too. I never bothered with the TMAX kit either, I had friends who did and they enjoyed themselves. The way I see it is I put all my money towards the people who know what they are doing, and even though I have been processing film for nearly 40 years with only a couple mishaps to speak of, I wouldn't bother, unless of course the film was just shot with nothing important on it as an experiment to see what the kit was like. AND how does one dispose of DIchromate Bleach and Sulfuric Acid which are probably what are in the Foma Kit? Its not worth the effort to deal with any of that, especially if DR5CHROME is a known quantity.

Of course YMMV.

Have fun!
J

AgX · Feb 21, 2019

jnantz said:
AND how does one dispose of DIchromate Bleach and Sulfuric Acid which are probably what are in the Foma Kit?

There is no Dichromate in the Foma bleach.

mshchem · Feb 21, 2019

jnantz said:
DR5 has been doing the same since 1991. They have exposure recommendations on their website for nearly every film made today or yesterday. They are available for consultation if you have questions, Dave Wood has a business with a reputation made from decades of experience and decades of extremely happy customers. No I have not used the Foma Kit, it wouldn't be worth it to me to use the kit and potentially screw up my film because of my lack of experience with their kit and lack of experience on the best way to expose the film too. I never bothered with the TMAX kit either, I had friends who did and they enjoyed themselves. The way I see it is I put all my money towards the people who know what they are doing, and even though I have been processing film for nearly 40 years with only a couple mishaps to speak of, I wouldn't bother, unless of course the film was just shot with nothing important on it as an experiment to see what the kit was like. AND how does one dispose of DIchromate Bleach and Sulfuric Acid which are probably what are in the Foma Kit? Its not worth the effort to deal with any of that, especially if DR5CHROME is a known quantity.

Of course YMMV.

Have fun!
J

Ok, I found their website. Their results look amazing. These guys are a couple hour drive from me. I could try espionage, but in a town of 1500 people even a fellow Iowan would stick out like a sore thumb. I'm going to shoot a roll of 120. Medium yellow filter big fluffy clouds. Send it off, see what I get

runswithsizzers · Feb 21, 2019

pmviewcam said:
I've used the Foma kit a fair bit, and if you get the exposure correct, the results were definitely worth it. As the previous poster mentions, expose for the highlights, so with anything that needs detail, aim at an exposure for Zone VII/VII.5. Having said that, I had a particular workflow - reversal processing FP4/Tri-X/Foma100 in both 35mm, 120 and 4x5 sheet, then enlarging on to 10x8 wetplate, which needs a positive. The major issue is ascertaining what kind of contrast you want to achieve - in my case, wetplate has a contrast range of 4 zones (IV through VII) so I was aiming for a fairly flattish result.

Grain is not an issue at the enlargements I am making (10x8). FP4 is my preferred film stock: low grain, good shadow detail (within the limits set by the process), good contrast range, very tight on highlight detail (exposure has to be spot-on). I use a Jobo processor, so temperature and rotation is managed. Timing of development has been with the Foma recommendations - I think that exposure is more critical.

Thanks so much for sharing your experience with the Foma kit!

When you say "Timing of development has been with the Foma recommendations" does that mean you have found Foma-recommended times specific to the Ilford and Kodak films? Or are you using the same development time for all films? I have Foma's Technical Data Sheet which shows a first development time of 12 minutes for Fomapan R - but so far, I have not seen any literature from Foma with developing times for other filmstocks.

Are you basing your exposures on Ilford / Kodak recommended ISO values or have you found more, or less, exposure works better?

removed account4 · Feb 21, 2019

AgX said:
There is no Dichromate in the Foma bleach.

that's good !

runswithsizzers · Feb 21, 2019

dE fENDER said:
They are using some kind of chromogenic intensification in DR5 like Kodachrome. It will increase Dmax far beyond any usual b/w reversal processing and as in staining developers, but in much more preferrable way - granular characteristics of the film (grain will be much less visible, tone will be much more smooth).

When you say "[DR5 processing] will increase Dmax far beyond any usual b/w reversal processing" are you basing that on theory, or can you point to some actual evidence that demonstrates a higher D-max when Fomapan-R is developed in DR5 compared to Foma's chemistry? (And/or evidence of finer grain / smoother tones than Foma chemistry?)

runswithsizzers · Feb 21, 2019

Not trying to be argumentative here, but sometimes it's worth remembering the words of Grace Hopper, American computer scientist and United States Navy rear admiral.

"One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."

Photo Engineer · Feb 21, 2019

I know that on average, the DR5 process has a very high chance of excellent results compared to others. Just like anything YMMV.

PE

removed account4 · Feb 21, 2019

runswithsizzers said:
Not trying to be argumentative here, but sometimes it's worth remembering the words of Grace Hopper, American computer scientist and United States Navy rear admiral.

"One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."

LOL no one is forcing you to send your film to DR5Chrome, do as you wish. Just make sure you are enjoying yourself !

runswithsizzers · Feb 21, 2019

Seem to be having a little trouble with communication here, so I probably should have worded my question differently.

To clarify: For me, DR5 is a known quantity. Just now got back 4 more rolls. Good stuff; I am not questioning that. My question is not, "Is DR5 any good?" And my question is not, "What is the best way to process b&w positives?" I already know DR5 processing is good, which is why I chose them as the benchmark to compare Foma to. My question is really more about Foma, which I have not yet tried.

So, considering that additional information, can anyone answer my question based on their personal experiece:

What are the observable differences between a b&w slide processed with the Foma home reversal kit compared to the same film stock processed by DR5?

If no one here has tried both, no problem, I'll check out the Foma kit myself, and then I'll be able to form my own expert opinion

Foma Home Reversal Kit vs DR5

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