Foma 400 in 4x5?

[Stephanie Brim]

Is there a reason that the 400 ISO film isn't available in sheet sizes? I know *I* would use it as I'm currently cringing at the price of HP5, the film I plan to buy when I'm finally out of my J&C stock, but not for the reason most people think. I'm still learning with my 4x5 cameras and I'm afraid that I wouldn't be able to do the HP5 justice.

Would there be any way to perhaps nudge them into doing a small run? Would there be other people interested?

 

[jmcd]

I would be interested as I think this is a great film, and would be ideally suited to 4x5. Foma's spec sheet for the 400 says "Other sizes are subject of an agreement with the manufacturer." Sounds like if the order were big enough they might do it.

 

[JMC1969]

I have read that rista Edu Ultra may possibly be Fomapan. We developed some of this last night in 12 format and it came out with a very blue base much like the older Plus-x had. I would have thought that was what it is except that the 120 roll was imprinted "0052 Ultra 400". So that brings me back to it possibly being Fomapan. I saw it in ISO200 in 4x5 sheet for $15/25sh and push it if you need ISO400 to meet HP5. Just a thought I'm sure will be blow out of the water by someone with more info than I.
Cheers

 

[Stephanie Brim]

So I guess this means that we need to get a group together to buy. I figure we could do it after Christmas. Who do you think would be the best person to ask the question? Also, should I post a separate thread about organizing a group buy?

If the price is as good as I think it will be I could go for 500 sheets by March.

 

[Andrew Moxom]

Arista Edu Ultra IS FOMA film at a rock bottom price. I use the Arista Edu Ultra 100 for $23.99 for 50 sheets. That's a good deal.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Agree with Andy, only I use their ISO 200 emulsion, also in the incarnation of Arista Ultra.EDU 200. It isn't entirely similar to the 400 speed film, but it's lovely film and as cheap as the ISO 100. $23.99 for 50 sheets is really cheap! And I absolutely love this film. It looks almost like Tri-X 400 used to when it was available in sheets.

- Thomas

 

[Stephanie Brim]

I think I may order some of the 200, but I'd REALLY like the 400. So...if anyone else is interested, perhaps we can see what the minimum order is.

 

[ntenny]

I wouldn't be contributing to a 4x5 order, but I wonder if there are others who would be interested in either 9x12 or 6.5x9...

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Stephanie, I would be interested in the ISO 400 emulsion in sheets. I love the medium format version. Beautiful grain and great tonality. I couldn't commit to much, though, as my budget for this is very tight, and I have to purchase just a little at a time or I'll exceed the income I have from print sales.

One thing to keep in mind is, by no knowledge of my own but experience in other threads about Ilford emulsions, that it's not as easy as 1-2-3 to move an emulsion from on type of film base to another, which is the case here. The emulsion is in need of some re-engineering in order to be coated on a different surface, so that would be a cost incurred R&D wise. Question is: Would they go through all of that trouble to do one small batch? My gut feeling is 'no'. But stranger things have happened. Don't let that discourage you if that's what you really want.

For my tastes and purposes, I'd rather use the Foma 400 over any other ISO 400 emulsion, because I too love how it looks. Don't think of Foma as a second hand emulsion, it's great film!

- Thomas

 

[PHOTOTONE]

To produce the ISO 400 film in 4x5, besides engineering the product, they would have to coat a mile long roll of 36" wide or wider film stock, then cut it down into sheet flm sizes and sell all of it within a year or so, while it still had good expiration dates on it. It would take a major commitment on the part of someone to get FOMA or anyone else to do this. About the same kind of commitment that Michael and Paula did for their Lodima paper project. Thousands and thousands of dollars in advance. Since FOMA already has 2 films in sheets, if they thought there would be enough market to produce it, I think they would already do it. The volume the members of APUG could use would not be near enough...and quite frankly, speaking as a professional, if I were needing to use an ISO 400 film on a paying job, I would go with Kodak or Ilford, for safety and quality control, although I gladly use Fomapan 200 for my personal work.

Then there is the question of "does FOMA actually make their ISO 400 roll and 35mm film?" If they purchase bulk from "another" vendor, then they probably can't engineer and offer it in sheet film sizes.

 

[Stephanie Brim]

The volume the members of APUG could use would not be near enough...and quite frankly, speaking as a professional, if I were needing to use an ISO 400 film on a paying job, I would go with Kodak or Ilford, for safety and quality control, although I gladly use Fomapan 200 for my personal work.

Foma's spec sheet for the 400 says "Other sizes are subject of an agreement with the manufacturer."

I think that if I brought it up on the Large Format Photography Forum as well as here we may have a pretty darn good shot. I could also bring it up on my website, in the large format Flickr group, and on dA in the photographer's sections. Other manufacturers do short runs of film for people. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for Foma to do so as well, especially as the spec sheet states that other sizes can be made available.

I don't think it ever hurts to ask.

As for the "paying job" thing, my photography will most likely never make me money. I love Ilford films as much as the next person, but learning to use a large format camera with HP5 is a waste of money best spent elsewhere...like to clothe my child.

 

[BradS]

This has been discussed before. There was even a fellow LF shooter who visited the factory in person and asked. Bottom line, if they did make a special run, don't expect it to cost less than Kodak or Ilford.

 

[PHOTOTONE]

Other manufacturers do short runs of film for people. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for Foma to do so as well, especially as the spec sheet states that other sizes can be made available.

I don't think it ever hurts to ask.

As for the "paying job" thing, my photography will most likely never make me money. I love Ilford films as much as the next person, but learning to use a large format camera with HP5 is a waste of money best spent elsewhere...like to clothe my child.

Other manufacturers do special "cuts" of film from already made master rolls. Kodak and Ilford do this. Since Fomapan 400 is not currently made on sheet film base, then a Master Roll would have to be coated. I really doubt this will happen unless a benefactor is willing to pay for the whole roll.

Would you purchase a case of a future Fomapan 400 sheet film if it cost within 10% of Kodak and Ilford prices?

 

[PHOTOTONE]

Have you tried the Fomapan 200? It is very good. I love it. If you are wanting a bargain priced film that has good fine grain, nice tones and available in a wide variety of sheet film sizes I highly recommend this film. Even cheaper if you buy it under the Freestyle private label. Arista.edu.ultra 200. In 4x5 (or larger) do you really "need" a ISO 400 film? I don't. Attached are a couple of shots on 5x7 Arista.edu.ultra 200 (Fomapan 200) light red filter used.

 

[fschifano]

I have read that rista Edu Ultra may possibly be Fomapan. We developed some of this last night in 12 format and it came out with a very blue base much like the older Plus-x had. I would have thought that was what it is except that the 120 roll was imprinted "0052 Ultra 400". So that brings me back to it possibly being Fomapan. I saw it in ISO200 in 4x5 sheet for $15/25sh and push it if you need ISO400 to meet HP5. Just a thought I'm sure will be blow out of the water by someone with more info than I.
Cheers

Arista.EDU Ultra is rebadged Foma. Freestyle, the vendor, is quite open about that. How many film manufacturers are based in the Czech Republic after all? Aside from that, all the published for Arista.EDU Ultra films match the data for Foma products. Why they don't sell the 400 speed film in 4x5 is a mystery to me. I've used more than a little bit of the stuff in both 35 mm and 120 formats, and while it is a good film, it does not reach box speed easily - if at all. Similarly, the 200 speed film does not make box speed too well either. And while the manufacturer claims that the 200 speed film can be pushed successfully, it doesn't really. A quick look at development curves in the data sheets will bear this out. Find them here: http://foma.cz/foma/produkt/FotoDetail.asp?produktid=12&seznam=cernob_fot. Use the 400 speed film at 320 or 250 for best results. The 200 speed film is nice at 125 or 160. Have you though about using Kodak's TMY in 4x5. It's beautiful in small and medium formats, and I see no reason why it would be any different in larger formats. It might even be less expensive than HP5+, depending on where you are in the world.

 

[BrianShaw]

4x5 (or larger) do you really "need" a ISO 400 film? I don't.

I agree. I've shot (and still shoot) ISO 400 in sheet and every time I do I wonder why I bother.

Back in the day when money was tight and I was learning to shoot LF, I concentrated on quality over quantity. Much more time was spent behind the GG composing versus exposing. That might be a better investment of energy than chasing down cheap film in an emulsion that doesn't currently exist. I learned many lessons about shooting LF without ever exposing a piece of film!

 

[PHOTOTONE]

I agree. I've shot (and still shoot) ISO 400 in sheet and every time I do I wonder why I bother.

After all, if you are going to shoot LF, you will have your camera on a tripod, and you will be using a cable release, so there is no big deal about a slow speed film and the resultant low shutter speed required. The only exception is of you are considering something like a Razzle and hand-held "candid" photography, for which LF is not really best suited anyway.

Even Large format portraiture can be quite successful at low shutter speeds.

 

[BrianShaw]

The only exception is of you are considering something like a Razzle and hand-held "candid" photography, for which LF is not really best suited anyway.

I shoot a lot handheld, with a SuperGraphic and Anniversary Graphic. If low light is an issue I tend to supplement with flash bulbs rather than faster film.

 

[BradS]

After all, if you are going to shoot LF, you will have your camera on a tripod, and you will be using a cable release, so there is no big deal about a slow speed film and the resultant low shutter speed required. The only exception is of you are considering something like a Razzle and hand-held "candid" photography, for which LF is not really best suited anyway.

Even Large format portraiture can be quite successful at low shutter speeds.

Whoa!!! not so fast. There are many of us who shoot LF handheld. I really appreciate the extra 1-1/2 to two stops that HP5 gives over fomapan 200. Even 320TXP is a full stop faster than Fomapan 200.

 

[eddie gunks]

stephanie,

do you shoot hand held? i find that i was the slowest speed film i can get so i can shoot my lenses wide open. when i am stopping them down i am still use above 1 sec. i shoot mainly on a tripod at f22 ish.

it all depends on how you shoot.

 

[Stephanie Brim]

Yeah, I'm planning to shoot handheld. I planned to push HP5 to 800. In the life before large format I was a Diafine user. HP5 at 640-800 in Diafine was one of my main combos. That and old Tri-X 400... Anyway, I know the type of results I would be getting from HP5 and I'd be happy with them. Maybe I'll just go that route.

It *would* be nice to see a cheaper offering in ISO 400 for those of us who would be interested in using it. If it isn't possible then it isn't possible, but I figured that it didn't hurt to post about it and see.

 

[ssloansjca]

Yes, the Speed Graphic 45 is a great camera for shooting 4x5 hand held. I shoot moving subjects with it framing with the sports finder (little wire frame) and it works great. Don't knock it if you have not tried it. I shoot trains moving at 60-70 mph handheld.

 

[Aurelien]

Then there is the question of "does FOMA actually make their ISO 400 roll and 35mm film?" If they purchase bulk from "another" vendor, then they probably can't engineer and offer it in sheet film sizes.

What do you mean, PE, saying that?
Why Foma can not coat their own ISO 400 film? I don't understand...

 

[PHOTOTONE]

What do you mean, PE, saying that?
Why Foma can not coat their own ISO 400 film? I don't understand...

I'm not PE, however some film vendors do not actually coat every film they offer. I thought I heard somewhere (I do not have proof) that the ISO 400 film offered by FOMA was not actually coated by them. I could be wrong. I never said FOMA couldn't coat their own ISO 400 film. I just said I didn't think they DID coat their ISO 400 film. In any case, FOMA does not offer an ISO 400 film coated on sheet-film base at the present time.

 

[Aurelien]

Indeed, they do not offer it in sheetfilm size. But the one they offer in rollfilm format (120) is coated onto their particular bluish - grey PET base, exactly as their 100 and 200 ISO films. They are the only firm to coat onto this base. I am very sceptical about your statement that they could not coat this film in their plant... Really.

And informations I gave from Robert Vonk were in this way, too...