Foma 200 - a 'Creative' lament

radiant

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That’s the problem. I really like the look of the film. Grain!! If Kentmere made a 120 film I would try that, but alas.

I looked my old scans (phthyi!) of Kentmere 400 and sure that is grainy. More grainier than Foma 200 for sure!
 

Lachlan Young

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I've seen nearly identical marking on rolls of Ilford FP3 that had been through a Rolleiflex in the early 1960s - which makes me suspect hardening (or insufficiency thereof) as well as packaging/ handling.
 
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Dusty Negative

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It's not the camera it's the film ...

I’m inclined (along with many others) to agree. Some point to sloppy handling, but I don’t know how to engage that assessment.

I suppose I could wind the film slower on to the Hewes reel, but that is the only change I can envision making. I don’t throw loose change in my tank for audible accompaniment whilst agitating; I don’t squeegee; I don’t use Stop; and no other film I develop shows scratches like this.

If the emulsion is truly orders of magnitude more fragile than literally any other emulsion on the market — then it’s *still* the film at the end of the day.
 
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Dusty Negative

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I think it is probably a combination of both. This film is very susceptible to pressure marks and scratches, but in my experiences marks like that aren't already on the film when you get it.

I can conceptually entertain that idea, but am simply not creative enough to fathom what I’d need to do differently so as to *not* get those curiously patterned marks. Changing bag -> Hewes reel -> stainless steel tank -> soak x2 -> developer -> water stop -> fix -> Ilford system wash -> photo flo -> unroll to hanger -> air dry NO SQUEEGEE.

Other than go slower in the changing bag I’m out of ideas. I shoot a pristine condition RB67. As others in this thread have mentioned, I get some rolls that end up pretty scratched, and others less so, and others (few) not at all. If *I* am scratching the film, I’m not doing it with any sort of consistency. Why?

Open to ideas, but skeptical. As I said before, if the emulsion is *that* sensitive, is it worth it?
 
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Dusty Negative

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Worth saying: I actually would love to determine the problem is my workflow — then I could continue to use this film. But what would I change??

I’ll shoot another roll and go slower in the changing bag. That’s the only area I can think of where any kind of friction directly on the film would occur (outside the camera housing) and will report back.
 

BKP

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I agree with you. I would suspect the film manufacture. or the developer not being mixed long enough. I'd suggest developing a roll that hasn't seen a camera. Sure do miss Kodak's former line up.
 

distributed

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These are my freshest "scratches" on Foma 200 to date. Shown is a photo of an enlargement of roughly the top quarter of a 6x4.5 negative. I, too, would be interested to learn what I would need to change in my processing of Foma films to avoid the phenomenon

It's quite interesting that there are 10 year old threads here that describe what looks to me to be the same problem. Allegedly Foma were working on the issue. Yet here we are, 10 years later, with the same issue and none the wiser as to how to avoid it with Foma films.

 

distributed

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> then I would simply avoid these films. I doubt there is anything they do which a conventional Ilford film can’t.

This is what is going to happen in my case What surprises me is that some people are very happy with the films and others absolutely aren't. I'm still holding some hope that somebody tells me what I am doing wrong
 

FotoD

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Shown is a photo of an enlargement of roughly the top quarter of a 6x4.5 negative.

So you have tried the film in anther camera now? Or are the problems still from your "beat up Ikonta"?

If this is actually something that has been observed by many users over a long period of time, and if gross user mishandling can be ruled out, then I would simply avoid these films.

Me too. But if it is a problem *some* users experience under *some* condtitions on *some* cameras, and user mishandling can't be ruled out, it seems reasonable to figure out what those conditions were and simply avoid them.

I'm not aware of another film with the same characteristics when it comes to tonality, grain, straight line HD curve, availability across formats, price etc.
 

distributed

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This is still a picture taken with the beat up Ikonta. The other roll has 2 more exposures until full, so we're only speaking weeks until I will have a negative

Btw, a fair number of users here mention the straight line curve of Fomapan 200. I understand what that means sensitometrically, but not image-wise. What would be examples of visible differences between a straight line film and say e.g. FP4+? In what cases would it be advantageous to choose a straight line film?
 

Don_ih

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So, maybe these aren't even scratches. Maybe the emulsion bunches together when the film is on the 120 spool and cracks when it's stretched flat. Then, when developed, a little flakes off.
 
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markjwyatt

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What is the orientation of the winding direction in the camera relative to the picture? I.e., does the camera wind vertically or horizontally? Then, when you spool the film what direction? Just looking for any clues. I have a bit of Foma also (I think fortunately only one roll of Foma 200, and that in 35mm).
 

Jonno85uk

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He has a lot of films which he has tested as part of a long series
 
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FotoD

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Ok, but if you end up with garbage, unprintable negatives you're probably better off spending zero.

Absolutely. But I don't believe all Ilford negs will be garbage. Im sure some will be usable.
 

distributed

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What is the orientation of the winding direction in the camera relative to the picture? I.e., does the camera wind vertically or horizontally?

On the sample picture, the film is wound horizontally and it is moving right to left. In other words, the thicker end of the defects are towards the loose end of the film.
 

FotoD

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What I mean is that although you save money buying Foma vs Ilford, Foma isn't really an option if the negatives are ruined.

That goes for any film doesn't it? I know I wouldn't be happy buying Ilford (at 2-3 times the price) or kodak (at 9 times the price) if the negatives are ruined.

I guess it's partly the usual implication that foma films aren't "conventional" as you put it, or that all foma film is crap as soon as someone with a beat up folder gets some scratches, that is getting a bit tiresome.

People tend to see what they want to see, or what someone else told them to see etc.

Couldn't have put it better myself.
 
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FotoD

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Agfa 1867
Ilford 1879
Kodak 1888
Foma 1921
Fujifilm 1934

I guess Fuji is also one of these newfangled makers of unconventional film?
 

distributed

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or that all foma film is crap as soon as someone with a beat up folder gets some scratches, that is getting a bit tiresome.

I am the one with the beat up folder in thread, so you sound like you direct this at me. The issues that OP is having look pretty similar and there is some history to this as well. For instance in this voluminous thread, the issue was had with a range of cameras and kinds of processing: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...of-small-scratches-looking-for-culprit.56515/. Or in this thread, where there are two examples: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/foma-is-taking-back-defective-200-120-film.89062/#post-1191088.

It's absolutely possible that the film path in the camera can make a big difference with Foma film. It also possible that my Ikonta doesn't pair well with Foma film. What I am saying is that this issue is not confined to that one guy who has a beat up folder. It happens to a number of people with different cameras and processing techniques who are using Foma films. I am not seeing the same incidence of issues for e.g. FP4.

What is getting tiresome to me is that speaking about defects gets me labeled as a Foma hater and evidence is discarded as being from that one isolated case where someone obviously messed up.
 

DREW WILEY

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I've already noted on previous threads on this film that I gave up on it due to parallel little cracks in the emulsion, plus random little zits representing voids in the emulsion. These were unquestionably factory flaws in my 8X10 sheet film, and present on two different batches I tested. Susceptibility to scratching during tray development was a different issue, and due the exceptionally sharp edges and corners of this brand of film compared to other options. There have been rumors why this was the case, the most probable being that the master spools of film weren't cured correctly, and the little cracks are due to its being prematurely cut. Whatever. I solved all the above by not longer using this brand at all. There have been plenty of similar complaints about the 200-speed version.
 
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FotoD

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What is getting tiresome to me is that speaking about defects gets me labeled as a Foma hater and evidence is discarded as being from that one isolated case where someone obviously messed up.

Sorry you feel that way. That quote was not directed at you, even if you use a folder. It was about some people jumping to conclusions before any testing is done.

As I said early in this thread, I think it's good that you try the film in another camera. It may be an inherent defect in the film. Or not. Only you can tell us when you've tested it in more than one camera.

I'm interested to see what you find.
 

FotoD

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I’ll say again, if these artifacts are not the result of unreasonably careless user handling, it is not a film worth using.

And I say if you're not having problems with scratches, it's a very nice film very much worth using.
 

grat

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So I'm not really in this particular discussion-- I shoot Foma 400, but only in sheet film. I do shoot a fair amount of 120, and I've always wondered-- for those with changing bags, how do you keep the bags from beating up the emulsion as you load the film onto a reel? The marks that are being shown, if they're in the direction the film was wound on the reel, look like drag marks.

This is one reason I got a tent. And why I'm considering building a changing box that isn't quite as awkward to use as the PhotoFlex tent.
 
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