Focusing issue

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Sorrycharlie

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Hi there, I have an Agfa c66 (Durst-m605) and I’ve come across a focusing issue. I’ve only been using it for a week or so and I’m pretty sure this problem wasn’t present when I first started.

So when I focusing using a focus finder (I have a Patterson and LPL) I focus on the grain but then I can see the image is slightly out just looking with my eye. Then I print and it is slightly out. If I focus just by eyeing on the easel I can get better focus. I am using the same paper underneath the focus finder and I am using two different focus finders.

Here’s what is confusing me. When I use these focus finders on my other enlarger they work perfectly, I focus on the grain and when I print they are perfect. Not sure what I’m doing wrong but hoping someone can help.
 

Vaughn

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I am wondering if using different focal lengths of enlarging lens makes a difference. You might have to recalibrate the focus finder based on which enlarger (lens) you are using.
 
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Sorrycharlie

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Ok cool. Yeah one has a 50mm (the one that is focusing nicely) and the other is 80mm (not focusing with the focus finder).

Oh, so you can calibrate a focus finder? I didn’t know that, how would I go about doing that? I’ll try Dr Google. Thanks you
 

chris77

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Haven't you just solved your on problem then?
FYI: I never use a focusing aid. I find they're more trouble than they're worth. And I've never had problems with unsharpness due to misfocusing during enlarging...
chapeau!
 

Ian C

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I think that you might be seeing the effects of a negative that has temporarily changed shape as the heat contained in the light is absorbed by the negative, particularly by the top surface of the negative, as it gets the strongest dose of the lamp’s heat. When this happens, some parts of the projection can be decidedly better focused than others.

A grain focuser is simple. The only calibration it receives is the placement of the reflective surface of the mirror and that of the focus-index reticle. That’s determined at manufacture and is not adjustable on any the focusers I’ve examined. Whether a sheet of paper is present under the base of the focuser or not is irrelevant insofar as accuracy of focus is concerned, although using a reflective sheet of paper under the focuser is a good idea because it provides a reflective surface that makes the image more-easily seen for easy composition and initial focus with the eye alone.

The focal length of the enlarging lens has no effect on the accuracy of the grain focuser. Here is how a grain focuser works. This might be easier to understand if you sketch a simple diagram. Choose a point A to represent the intersection of the negative and the lens axis (vertical centerline of the lens). Extend the line downward to intersect the image plane at point B.

Now place the mirror so that its reflective surface intersects the lens axis at point C. The light intercepted at point C is reflected to produce an aerial image at the plane of the indexing reticle at point D. The distance from A to C to D is the same as the distance from A to B. No adjustment is provided.

The position of the loupe of the instrument can be adjusted so that the magnified aerial image is most easily seen by the particular user. He or she simply adjusts the loupe position until the indexing reticle is best resolved. The adjustment is available to accommodate the eyesight of the user. Since the maker placed the reticle to coincide with the aerial image, when the loupe is positioned for the crispest image of the reticle, you automatically get best focus of the aerial image. For the magnified view provided by the loupe, we get to see the grain pattern. For unusually fine-grain films or low enlarger magnification, we might instead have to focus on small, contrasting detail.

There is no adjustment, nor should there be, provided that the instrument was assembled correctly in manufacture. I’ve used loupes by Paterson, Thomas Instruments, Bestwell Instruments, and Tohkai Sangyo (Peak and Omega). They all find the best focus better then most users could by eye alone. The “fly in the ointment” is a negative that is not restrained in a glass carrier, especially one used with a condenser enlarger, which tends to deliver more heat to the negative than you’d get from a dichroic color head (has built-in heat-absorbing or heat-reflecting filter).

I have worked with enlargers regularly since 1987. I’ve dealt with the very-common problem of negative heating with my enlargers and those of others many times.

The grain focuser is very simple. Negative heating and the consequent temporary change of shape (“popping”) of the negative is a problem that is often wrongly attributed to other causes: bad lens, misalignment, misadjusted grain magnifier, enlarger vibration, and so forth ad nauseum.

I made several posts in the following thread concerning this issue. Possible they might be useful to you, especially my recommendations for making a temporary glass carrier, If that resolves the problem—as I think it will—you will have found the cause of the problem:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/faulty-lens-on-agfa-enlarger.170968/

I find the use of a grain focuser an essential tool to make well-defined prints consistently on my enlargers. I find the use of a glass negative carrier essential to making projections that are uniformly focused from center to corner. Without it, uniform focus is impossible for some enlargers. They might not be required for cold-light heads or other light sources that either produce little heat or those with a better-than-average heat-filtering system.

Note: Adjusting the position of the loupe in no way alters the best focus of the enlarger. Even if the loupe slightly misplaced, the best resolution of the grain/detail seen with the focuser will still occur when the enlarger lens is optimally positioned relative to the negative. The grain/detail is most easily seen when the loupe is correctly indexed to the focusing reticle for the particular user.

Also, see post #7 in the following link. This has been my experience as well as it relates to glass carriers vs a plain carrier.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/giving-up-on-the-v35-back-to-the-23c.171651/
 

ic-racer

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Make sure the reticle of the focus finder is in focus for your eye. Also, make sure the focus finder is not damaged and the reticle is actually focusing on the correct baseobard plane.
 
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Hi there, I have an Agfa c66 (Durst-m605) and I’ve come across a focusing issue. I’ve only been using it for a week or so and I’m pretty sure this problem wasn’t present when I first started.

So when I focusing using a focus finder (I have a Patterson and LPL) I focus on the grain but then I can see the image is slightly out just looking with my eye. Then I print and it is slightly out. If I focus just by eyeing on the easel I can get better focus. I am using the same paper underneath the focus finder and I am using two different focus finders.

Here’s what is confusing me. When I use these focus finders on my other enlarger they work perfectly, I focus on the grain and when I print they are perfect. Not sure what I’m doing wrong but hoping someone can help.
Are you setting your grain focuser on the easel and not on something to raise the focuser? Grain focusers help, but you can focus a print on the easel without a focuser. You can focus on the edge or between frames on 120 or 35mm. You don't seem to have any alignment issues with your enlarger.
 

MattKing

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Is there any chance that your enlarger's head moves slightly when you adjust the focus? You might be putting more weight on the enlarger's focus adjustment when you lean down to use the focus finder.
And I doubt that the magnitude of this effect will matter much, but I wonder if the light source from the two different enlargers is sufficiently different in colour to be focusing differently when you use the focus finder. Wavelength does matter (a bit).
 
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Sorrycharlie

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35911E66-5924-437C-9343-EF40033A42AC.jpeg
 
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Sorrycharlie

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The image on the left is on the one I’m having trouble with. Both done using the same focus finder and both look perfect through the focus finder. Hopefully the difference is noticeable here.
 
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Sorrycharlie

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Thanks for all your replies everybody! Ok so after reading through all the above I don't think I've found the problem. The problem is very strange and may be a bit hard to describe. So basically, on the AGFA C66 (Durst M605) I'm having the focusing issue. So last night I went and tried some of these suggestions and no luck.

So what's happening is I focus on the grain with the focus finder perfectly, it looks tack sharp, I can focus on the grain easily. Then, instantly when I look at the easel, it's clearly not in focus. I'm not leaning on the focus wheel or anything like that, I'm focusing on the grain then pulling my hands away, looks perfect, lift my head and move the focus finder from the easel and I can clearly see I'm out. I've tried two different focus finders and they both do the same thing.

I've got another enlarger though and when I use the same focus finders on it they work perfectly.

I've tried paper on, paper off, adjusting the eyepiece, tried focusing both wide open and at the aperture used, nothing seems to work.

If I focus the AGFA by eye I get better results than with the focus finders. As suggested, why don't I just focus by eye then? Well it's better focus but not perfect, I feel like I can only get it so sharp by eye.
 

Ian C

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Here’s how this might make sense. When the negative warms, the negative temporarily forms a “pregnant belly”. You grain focus near the top of the belly. When you focus, you adjust the lens position so that the area seen with the magnifier is crisp. But at the same time the area of the negative lower than the object plane on which you’ve focused is somewhat out of focus. Overall, the projection is a bit fuzzy—even though you’ve obtained crisp view of a small part of the negative where it’s bellied upward.

Have you tried obtaining two small sheets of glass to temporarily sandwich the negative between them to hold the negative uniformly flat during the projection?

You stated,

“I've got another enlarger though and when I use the same focus finders on it they work perfectly.”

From this comment it should be obvious to you that the problem is not due to either of your grain focusers. I discussed the making of a temporary glass carrier in posts #18 & 19 in the following thread:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/faulty-lens-on-agfa-enlarger.170968/

I recommend that you try this. Given the nature of the problem, it’s worth trying. The cost of a couple of sheets of glass 3” x 5” x 1/8”, or whatever size works best in your machine, should be modest. If you try this, I predict that the problem will disappear with the problematic enlarger.
 
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Sorrycharlie

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Here’s how this might make sense. When the negative warms, the negative temporarily forms a “pregnant belly”


Hi Ian, thanks so much for the reply, some great information to take in. I will definitely try two pieces of glass in the negative carrier, the negative carrier has the slots with the ability to take glass inserts so this should be easy.

I have my doubts that this is the problem though. Mainly because as I say, when I focus with the grain finder it’s perfect, then when I pull away it’s out of focus. Not just the area I had the grain focuser, the entire image is soft from corner to corner. I would agree that this is the problem if maybe after printing the middle of image is sharp but the corners were out of focus. But this is more instant, I move the grain finder around the image to wherever there’s available light and I can see the entire image is in focus, then I simply look without the grain finder and the whole image is out.

If I focus the image just with my eye alone I get much better focus and much better printed image( still not perfect) I’m wondering if there’s a tool I can use, like a loupe to just magnify the projected image for finer focusing. I’m just thinking that when you put your head down to the loupe that you obviously block all the light? Perhaps just a hand held magnifying glass?

Anyway, I’m going to try your suggestion of glass and hoping that works. Thanks.
 

MattKing

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Here is a test to try:
1) elevate your easel (with some big books? or a couple of 2"x4"s?);
2) focus an image as best as you can at the widest lens aperture using your eyes and some sort of magnification like reading glasses;
without changing anything on your enlarger,
3) bring the focus finder on to the elevated easel, observe how the image looks in it, then raise the focus finder slowly to see if the image changes for the better (more in focus) as you raise it;
4) remove the elevation for the easel, check how the image looks through the focus finder when it is at approximately the same height as the easel was before, then lower the focus finder slowly to see if the image changes for the better (more in focus) as you lower it.

Essentially, you are checking to see if the focus finder is off.

I know you say that the focus finder works well with a different enlarger, but there may be differences in the depth of focus (depth of field?) between the enlargers.

Can you use the same lens when you compare the two enlargers?
 
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Sorrycharlie

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Essentially, you are checking to see if the focus finder is off.

Hi Matt, thanks very much for your response. I will try what you’re suggesting though I don’t think this is my problem.

As I mentioned, I have 2 focus finders, a paterson and a LPL and am getting the same result regardless of which one I use.
 
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Sorrycharlie

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So I seemed to have sorted this issue. Believe it or not BOTH of my focus finders happen to be somehow out of alignment. Looking through some boxes of old darkroom equipment I came across a 3rd focus finder and tried it. Focused on the grain, look away, looks perfect. Place the paterson and the LPL grain finder on and bang, they are out of focus. So using this 3rd focus finder I found seems to work great and has solved my problem. The other two finders seem to work well on my LPL enlarger they justly don’t like my AGFA (Durst)
Thanks to everyone that offered advise.
 
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Sorrycharlie

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You're not by any chance focusing using either blue or red light, are you?

Do you mean blue or red light from the enlarger, as in the filters? No, just white light, I did try focusing with red as I read this might be safer for you eyes, but it didn’t seem to matter what light I used to focus, it was always out of focus regardless.
 

koraks

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White or green should be good. I was thinking about the things Ctein said about misfocus using aerial focus finders particularly when using blue light. Still, it's conceivable that the combination of the optics in the focus finders and the shape of your eye results in misalignment. I still can't explain exactly why this would be a problem with one enlarger and not with another, though.
 
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hey mate, i've just got one of these enlargers and cant work the timer. can you provide any help?
 

koraks

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What timer do you have? The m605 itself doesn't have one. Post a photo of your timer, it'll help triggering some responses.

It may also help to open a new thread about it instead of replying to several old ones.
 
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hey mate, sorry its my first day here! i've already started a thread and noone can help, so looking back at people who have used the enlarger, its the agfa c66 not the durst.


What timer do you have? The m605 itself doesn't have one. Post a photo of your timer, it'll help triggering some responses.

It may also help to open a new thread about it instead of replying to several old ones.
 
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