Flexicolor Reference: b-2020-c41.pdf

Bormental said:

I am surprised we are not discussing 1L processing capacity of Flexicolor fixer and bleach, to be honest. The developer is less controversial, in my opinion. Having to replace fixer & bleach only after 6 rolls of 120 film is annoying. I am even considering replenishing those as well. Any thoughts here? BTW, apparently one cannot edit old posts, so I cannot upload the updated version of the PDF to the original post.

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the bleach and fix are both more cost effective and easy to replenish. The fixer you just need to be careful not to under replenish, the bleach, just make sure you’re aerating it sufficiently and following the replenishment guidelines so your retained silver Doesn’t go out of whack. You can use a fish tank air pump to pump air into your bottle of bleach working solution.

Bormental said:

I am surprised we are not discussing 1L processing capacity of Flexicolor fixer and bleach, to be honest. The developer is less controversial, in my opinion. Having to replace fixer & bleach only after 6 rolls of 120 film is annoying. I am even considering replenishing those as well. Any thoughts here? BTW, apparently one cannot edit old posts, so I cannot upload the updated version of the PDF to the original post.

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Really don't know, I think it is difficult to identify partial bleach or fix without a densitometer and probably also a control strip. I am now using C-41RA bleach and fixer that I buy quite cheap and procesing times are so short that I don't want to assume any risk with replenishments.

Thanks guys. I am asking not because of the cost, but frequency / inconvenience of disposing used chemicals.

Bormental said:

BTW, apparently one cannot edit old posts, so I cannot upload the updated version of the PDF to the original post.

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If you Report your own post, you can request help from a moderator. They could add the updated version at the end, or a link to the post where the update is uploaded with a note to "See updated table here:"

Bormental said:

Thanks guys. I am asking not because of the cost, but frequency / inconvenience of disposing used chemicals.

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If you want the absolute lowest chemical waste, not to mention lowest chemical cost per roll, nothing can compete with a replenished system that uses squeegees at the end of every tank. (Self-feeding roller-transport machines, like minilab processors get a squeegee effect from passing the film between opposing rollers). The significance of squeegees is that they greatly reduce carryover, due to wet film, into the following chemical tanks. (Since carryover dilutes the following tank this means that a higher replenishment rate is needed to compensate for a lack of squeegees.)

Obviously you are not gonna be using squeegees in a hand processing setup, but replenishment ought to be possible, provided that you are not using something like a Jobo processor (Kodak recommends single-use, only, for such machines.)

You would ideally use the LORR replenisher, as that has the lowest replenishment rate, something like 25 ml per roll (135-36, or 120 roll-film). You would also want a multi-stage fixer system as this can significantly reduce fixer use. (The limit on fixer use is generally seen as when the silver concentration exceeds some predetermined aim. If you use a two stage system you'll end up with a significantly lower silver concentration in the second tank, meaning that more film can be processed before reaching the limit.)

Anyway, these are the ways to minimize waste. But all things considered, this might be even more inconvenient than dealing with the waste.

If you don't do commercial processing, where you need a sewering permit, and you are on a municipal sewer, there is a good likelihood that you can just put it all down the drain. You'd have to check the local laws. But the photo chemicals are relatively benign, even the photographic silver, and a municipal sewer system should easily be able to handle it. But in the spirit of conserving silver you might consider using a silver recovery device such as the "Silver Magnet," a small, low current electroplating system. (One of the members here, John Nanian, is a dealer for them.) You'd have to process a pretty healthy amount of film to collect enough silver to pay for a Silver Magnet, but at least it's all in one place as metallic silver. If you go to a hazardous waste disposal outfit it's more than likely incinerated with the ash going into a landfill. So ... you gotta decide for yourself (after reviewing local laws, of course).

@Mr Bill do you recommend a stop bath before bleaching? I've searched past threads on the subject. PE's advice was "they do not hurt as long as it is NOT citric acid based", acetic acid is preferred.

Bormental said:

@Mr Bill do you recommend a stop bath before bleaching? I've searched past threads on the subject. PE's advice was "they do not hurt as long as it is NOT citric acid based", acetic acid is preferred.

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I rehalogenated C41 bleach for decades, usually mixing up a completely new solution after either time or bulk films had been put through. The time was around 9 months to a year, the film throughput was in the vicinity of 200 rolls of 135 C41 or the equivilant in 4x5" sheet film. I'm not sure if you have seen this thread, but 15 years ago (where has the time gone) I posted this; post number 11.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/c41-bleach-formula.12343/

Mick.

Thanks, Mick.

Phew, today was my first C-41 with Flexicolor chemistry using the PDF above. I have four rolls hanging & drying right now. TBH I cannot tell how successful this was, as I am not good at reading the color negatives. What complicates matters, is that they're all Portra 400 which I haven't done before. What **is** promising is that they all look the same. The density & color of the orange mask, etc. So whatever I did, I did it consistently across two runs (two rolls per tank).

I ran into a problem though. I am using amber glass bottles for everything, and as I was warming up the chemistry (which was mixed the night before) from 65F to 100F, the bleach bottle exploded in the water bath. :-( Lesson learned!

Mick Fagan said:

I rehalogenated C41 bleach for decades, usually mixing up a completely new solution after either time or bulk films had been put through. The time was around 9 months to a year, the film throughput was in the vicinity of 200 rolls of 135 C41 or the equivilant in 4x5" sheet film. I'm not sure if you have seen this thread, but 15 years ago (where has the time gone) I posted this; post number 11.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/c41-bleach-formula.12343/

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The EDTA part of a bleach has almost an indefinite life with proper aeration, but there is also a bromide salt present in the bleach that needs to be replenished. Rehalation is to form again a silver salt from metallic silver that will be disolved in a later fixer, EDTA forms the silver ion and there is a bromide salt that binds to that ion to form a silver bromide compound. Without the bromide salt there is no effective bleach, it is what happens if you use just the bleach part of a blix. That salt content is depleated in each use and needs to be replenish sometime.

There is some comments by PE about this in this thread.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/c-41-bleach-aeration.19422/#post-268635

I don't know how much replenishment is needed and for how many rolls a bleach working solution will last with any time adjustments, but replenishment is needed for sure.

Bormental said:

@Mr Bill do you recommend a stop bath before bleaching? I've searched past threads on the subject. PE's advice was "they do not hurt as long as it is NOT citric acid based", acetic acid is preferred.

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Hi, I've never used a stop bath with C41; it's not a part of the standard C41 process. But... I've always worked with machines that effectively "squeegee" the film prior to bleach and have good agitation as the film enters the bleach. If you don't have both of these, as well as good aeration of the bleach, I can see a possibility of having issues - perhaps some streaking (?), etc.? My approach would always be to try to resolve the cause of the problem first.

I'd also want to see what steps are "approved" by a major manufacturer such as Kodak. If they don't specifically condone something then I would avoid doing it, except perhaps for personal experimentation. My view is that they are gonna have inside knowledge of the issues, and if they do not specifically recommend something then perhaps there is a reason for this.

I should be clear that I'm taking the position I would have while working for a large chain outfit. We had a 100% satisfaction guarantee on our products, so consequently were conservative with any treatments. If something went drastically wrong, say huge quantities of prints faded prematurely, we would want the manufacturer to stand behind their product and share in the cost of replacing customer work (or whatever needed to be done). So if you can imagine being in this situation, but if you had made a significant change in the process then you are in an awkward situation. Perhaps, even, your process change had caused the problem. So for any significant amount of commercial work I want to know that I have the manufacturer's blessing.

I would also see PE's statement as assurance that there are no such hidden problems, so I'd probably feel comfortable using such a stop bath for my own work. If it HAD to be done. But I'd wanna understand the issues as to why.

halfaman said:

The EDTA part of a bleach has almost an indefinite life with proper aeration...

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halfaman said:

I don't know how much replenishment is needed and for how many rolls a bleach working solution will last with any time adjustments, but replenishment is needed for sure.

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Hi, the first part of this, about the bleaching agent, is not exactly true. The chemical components themselves will just keep going on and on, but they gradually get diluted by the wet film coming into the tank. So the ideal way to deal with this is to add in some replenisher that is "extra-strength" with respect to the bleaching agent. Very roughly, if the developer carry-in dilutes the bleach by 10% then you might want to add some replenisher that is 10% over-strength. Now this is not exactly how it works, but it gets the general idea across. Then, like you said, the bromide gets used up in proportion to how much development was done. So the replenisher needs enough bromide to both counteract the dilution plus make up for what's put back into the film.

There's still a little more going on; another chemical component, plus the need to hold the pH in working range, as well as to keep the bleach aerated enough. Regarding how much replenishment is needed, well that was a job for the designer of the replenisher. Whatever they worked out the rate to be, that's what you basically need. With some allowances for evaporation, perhaps, and the amount of developer carry-in you have. Developer carry-in will tend to raise the bleach pH, so if you have more carry-in than the designer intended then you might have to increase the replenishment rate to keep the pH within spec.

Someone running a commercial lab would typically check chemical samples out of the machine periodically. A "specific gravity" check gives a good idea if the replenishment rate is ok (bleach is quite a bit "heavier" than developer, so if there's not enough bleach replenishment then the specific gravity gets "lighter" than spec.) And of course the pH has to also stay within range.

Bormental said:

Thanks, Mick.

Phew, today was my first C-41 with Flexicolor chemistry using the PDF above. I have four rolls hanging & drying right now. TBH I cannot tell how successful this was, as I am not good at reading the color negatives. What complicates matters, is that they're all Portra 400 which I haven't done before. What **is** promising is that they all look the same. The density & color of the orange mask, etc. So whatever I did, I did it consistently across two runs (two rolls per tank).

I ran into a problem though. I am using amber glass bottles for everything, and as I was warming up the chemistry (which was mixed the night before) from 65F to 100F, the bleach bottle exploded in the water bath. :-( Lesson learned!

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Yeah, I don't actually use the glass storage bottles to heat the solutions. The 600ml JOBO bottles are a much better way to go for heating the solutions for use. The glass bottles never vary from room temperature. If you need more than 600ml, you can also get the Liter sized ones easy enough. Having the plastic bottles for the actual processing run is just simpler and since you don't have to be as careful, a lot faster.

Mr Bill said:

Hi, I've never used a stop bath with C41; it's not a part of the standard C41 process. But... I've always worked with machines that effectively "squeegee" the film prior to bleach and have good agitation as the film enters the bleach. If you don't have both of these, as well as good aeration of the bleach, I can see a possibility of having issues - perhaps some streaking (?), etc.? My approach would always be to try to resolve the cause of the problem first.

I'd also want to see what steps are "approved" by a major manufacturer such as Kodak. If they don't specifically condone something then I would avoid doing it, except perhaps for personal experimentation. My view is that they are gonna have inside knowledge of the issues, and if they do not specifically recommend something then perhaps there is a reason for this.

I should be clear that I'm taking the position I would have while working for a large chain outfit. We had a 100% satisfaction guarantee on our products, so consequently were conservative with any treatments. If something went drastically wrong, say huge quantities of prints faded prematurely, we would want the manufacturer to stand behind their product and share in the cost of replacing customer work (or whatever needed to be done). So if you can imagine being in this situation, but if you had made a significant change in the process then you are in an awkward situation. Perhaps, even, your process change had caused the problem. So for any significant amount of commercial work I want to know that I have the manufacturer's blessing.

I would also see PE's statement as assurance that there are no such hidden problems, so I'd probably feel comfortable using such a stop bath for my own work. If it HAD to be done. But I'd wanna understand the issues as to why.

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With a JOBO or Paterson tank there's *a lot* of carry over. You can literally upend the tank and let it sit there for 15-20 seconds and it's still dripping out a reasonably fair amount of developer, and you lost a whole pile of heat, not that the bleach and fix steps are that sensitive to temperature. If you want to stop development really fast in that environment, an acetic acid stop bath will do it, and help wash out developer. Lately I've been doing a stop bath in my JOBO, then following that with a fast fill dump, fill dump of at temperature water before going into bleach, just so the stop bath doesn't effect the pH of the bleach.

Quick update: my films are dry and I'm scanning. Definitely loving what I see from the Flexicolor chemistry. There's something gentle about the look I am getting, maybe I'm imagining it but Cinestill C41 kit was more "harsh".

Here's the frame I just scanned with Fuji X-T3 camera:
Godak Gold 200, 35mm | full size scan.

Development with a Paterson tank:

• Chemicals were mixed according to what's in the PDF
  
• Ambient temp of 68F
• Heated a tub of water to 102F
• Pre-heated all chemicals to 102F in the tub
  
• Right before starting, I pulled bleach, fixer and rise out of the tub and just placed them on the counter
• Followed PE's advice on two pre-soaks in the tub, 30 seconds each
• 30 second non-stop inversion in the air, followed by 1 inversion every 10 seconds, keeping the tank in the tub

I have tested the procedure above using just water, and after the first 30 seconds of inversions the temperature inside the tank was exactly 100F.

[edit] Also, uploading the updated PDF (better formatting)

Looking good!
I personally don't do a prewash but temper the dry tank in the water bath. Not that it matters much; I know the pros and cons, but IMO the debate is always much ado about nothing...

Bormental said:

Quick update: my films are dry and I'm scanning. Definitely loving what I see from the Flexicolor chemistry. There's something gentle about the look I am getting, maybe I'm imagining it but Cinestill C41 kit was more "harsh".

Here's the frame I just scanned with Fuji X-T3 camera:
View attachment 255310Godak Gold 200, 35mm | full size scan.

Development with a Paterson tank:

• Chemicals were mixed according to what's in the PDF
  
• Ambient temp of 68F
• Heated a tub of water to 102F
• Pre-heated all chemicals to 102F in the tub
  
• Right before starting, I pulled bleach, fixer and rise out of the tub and just placed them on the counter
• Followed PE's advice on two pre-soaks in the tub, 30 seconds each
• 30 second non-stop inversion in the air, followed by 1 inversion every 10 seconds, keeping the tank in the tub

I have tested the procedure above using just water, and after the first 30 seconds of inversions the temperature inside the tank was exactly 100F.

[edit] Also, uploading the updated PDF (better formatting)

Click to expand...

that looks great!

Hmmm, very nice, now you really are up and running.

Mick.

Thank you. And, honestly, what a relief! I've spent $200+ on chemicals because Flexicolor isn't available in small quantities, so I really, re-e-e-ally needed the results to be good, because I'm stuck with a year+ supply...

Bormental said:

Thank you. And, honestly, what a relief! I've spent $200+ on chemicals because Flexicolor isn't available in small quantities, so I really, re-e-e-ally needed the results to be good, because I'm stuck with a year+ supply...

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They are really good to my eyes. Congrats.

I really appreciate the reference guide and everyones comments on this thread.

I'm curious to know if the prevailing wisdom here is to use the tank solution one shot, or if the replenishment quantities given have produced acceptable results for folks. Lets assume a broad definition of 'acceptable results'. Is replenishment done before the start of processing of the new batch, or at the end of the previous batch?

I'd also recommend that the initial post, atleast, in bold, reference the availability of the new PDF that was created in the middle of this thread, as that seems to be more authoritative (maybe?)
Thanks again!