Flexicolor developer-replenisher CAT 3667805 - how to use it?

[Bormental]

I am looking at this developer:

• on Freestyle
• on UniquePhoto

... and, according to Kodak Z-131, this is what they call simply "KODAK FLEXICOLOR Developer Replenisher". No prefixes like "LU" or "LORR". But then, the Z-131 document says to use "KODAK FLEXICOLOR Developer Starter" (notice the absence of "LORR" prefix).

Where is that starter? There's no sign of it on the Internet. It's not discontinued, it looks like it never existed. I wish Z-131 just used CAT numbers for everything.

Basically, I can't figure out how to use the CAT 3667805, specifically:

• Which starter to use with it? Can I use the LORR one? It's the only one available anywhere...
• What's the dilution to make a 1L bottle from scratch, i.e. with the starter?
• What are the replenishment rates, is it safe to use non-LORR "Flexicolor Developer Replenisher" table from Z-131?

 

[MattKing]

Z-131 is/was intended to cover lots of situations, over a long period of time, in a lot of different geographic markets. Product availability differs/differed with those geographic differences, and as a result different catalogue numbers apply to those different products.
Catalogue numbers also change regularly, for a bunch of reasons including changes to package sizes.
For all those reasons historically one relied on one's wholesale lab supplier to help make sense of all this - because if you used these products, you were operating a commercial lab.
With the exception of some no longer available small volume user kits, it wasn't intended that small volume users would use these products.
Starter is intended to pre-season the developer. You can accomplish the same by wasting a certain amount of film and re-using the developer, but for colour I wouldn't recommend that.
I can't see any reason why the LORR version of the starter would differ from any other version - I would suggest you use the available LORR version according to its instructions.

 

[MattKing]

You might consider contacting Kodak Alaris directly with your query.
This email is a new one (from my perspective) that can be found on the Kodak Alaris website: ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com

 

[Bormental]

Will try. How did you find it? Photrio amazes me... Soon I will start asking for relationship advice!

 

[MattKing]

Will try. How did you find it? Photrio amazes me... Soon I will start asking for relationship advice!

Ix-nay on the relationship advice.
But otherwise, they recently put a new notice on their chemicals page that included it.
That page is here: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers-photo-printing/resources/chem-tech-info

 

[Bormental]

Response from Kodak:

Hi Bormental,

To make a fresh tank solution of developer, use cat# 6601074.
Below is a screen shot of the label – Use the mixing instructions at the bottom for developer replenisher cat# 3667805:

To make 1L of tank solution:

• Use 860 ml of developer replenisher cat# 3667805 (parts A,B,C mixed with water)
• Add 18 ml of developer starter cat# 6601074
• Add water to make 1L volume

Regards,
Michael Seaberg | Worldwide Photo Chemicals Product Manager Kodak Alaris Inc., 336 Initiative Drive, Rochester, NY 14624

 

[MattKing]

Great!

 

[mshchem]

Yeah, I just dug out my bottle of starter. It's got the dilution instructions on the label. There's the dilution Kodak Alanis gave you and another for LORR. I use the dilution you have.

 

[flite]

Response from Kodak:

Hi Bormental,

To make a fresh tank solution of developer, use cat# 6601074.
Below is a screen shot of the label – Use the mixing instructions at the bottom for developer replenisher cat# 3667805:

To make 1L of tank solution:

• Use 860 ml of developer replenisher cat# 3667805 (parts A,B,C mixed with water)
• Add 18 ml of developer starter cat# 6601074
• Add water to make 1L volume

Regards,
Michael Seaberg | Worldwide Photo Chemicals Product Manager Kodak Alaris Inc., 336 Initiative Drive, Rochester, NY 14624

Wish I had read this only one day sooner! I just developed a batch of film with less than stellar results, likely due to wrongly assuming this most recent iteration of Flexicolor cat # 3667805 did not require starter.

I created a 1L batch of said Flexicolor cat # 3667805 using the following supposedly updated amounts that supersede the values in Kodak's 2009 dated CIS-49:

Water 750ml
Part A 75.2ml
Part B 25ml
Part C 37.84ml
Add water to 1L

So what I should have done was complete the above, then measure out 860ml, add 18ml of developer starter cat# 6601074, and add water to make 1L of working solution? That's probably why these negatives are dull and lifeless...?

The remainder of the process was done with Bleach III cat # 6600258, Fixer cat # 6600027, and Final Rinse cat # 5270103. Anything else I should know (starters for instance?) when using these? I just created all in 1L batches by doing the math.

Also, how long do these 1L batches last? I'm curious how long you can get away with good results, and how many rolls of film they can handle before it's spent.

 

[MattKing]

So what I should have done was complete the above, then measure out 860ml, add 18ml of developer starter cat# 6601074, and add water to make 1L of working solution? That's probably why these negatives are dull and lifeless...?

The most likely result of not using starter is over-developed negatives, with some potential for crossover.
Starter adds the bromides and other development byproducts that come from developing film and re-using the developer - they tend to restrain development.

 

[flite]

Over-developed with poor shadow and highlight detail and flat colors (lacking the smooth and muted tones Portra is known for), is how I would describe this most recent batch unfortunately. I'll go ahead and pick up some developer starter cat # 6601074 for use next time.

I know it's only recommended for one-time use, but any idea how long this flexicolor chemistry made in 1L batches (all of it - developer, bleach, fixer, final rinse) will last and how many rolls it could handle? For instance, would I be able to come back in a week or two and successfully use the working solution? Developing no more than say, 6-10 rolls of film total?

 

[Adrian Bacon]

I am looking at this developer:

• on Freestyle
• on UniquePhoto

... and, according to Kodak Z-131, this is what they call simply "KODAK FLEXICOLOR Developer Replenisher". No prefixes like "LU" or "LORR". But then, the Z-131 document says to use "KODAK FLEXICOLOR Developer Starter" (notice the absence of "LORR" prefix).

Where is that starter? There's no sign of it on the Internet. It's not discontinued, it looks like it never existed. I wish Z-131 just used CAT numbers for everything.

Basically, I can't figure out how to use the CAT 3667805, specifically:

• Which starter to use with it? Can I use the LORR one? It's the only one available anywhere...
• What's the dilution to make a 1L bottle from scratch, i.e. with the starter?
• What are the replenishment rates, is it safe to use non-LORR "Flexicolor Developer Replenisher" table from Z-131?

There's only one starter... Cat 660 1074 (for the U.S. as of late 2020). It covers C-41, C-41RA, C-41B, and C41SM. How much starter you add varies based on if it's the normal developer, LU, LORR, SM, or RA. The bottle has instructions.

 

[Bormental]

@Adrian Bacon you mention C41SM. Where did you find SM developer? It's another mystery that only exists in Kodak PDFs...

 

[Adrian Bacon]

@Adrian Bacon you mention C41SM. Where did you find SM developer? It's another mystery that only exists in Kodak PDFs...

The only place I've ever been able to buy SM Tank Chemistry is from is Pakor, and they didn't regularly stock it and had to special order it for me, which meant I had to buy case sizes (which is a lot of chemistry). I was fine with that at the time, but that was 2-3 years ago now, and I've since switched over to just the standard developer, the RA-NR bleach, and the standard fixer, as those have been generally easier to get. When my current RA NR bleach supply is gone, I'll probably just switch over to the Bleach III as then I'll be able to just get everything directly from Freestyle as I have a business account with them and generally get wholesale prices (or pretty close to it) on most things. The sizes of things they sell are generally not well suited for the home user, but I go though enough chemistry, that I'm generally buying multiple units at a time. The average home user is probably a bit better off getting the LU developer from Unique Photo as it comes in smaller 5L packs instead of the larger 20L packs of the standard developer. The bleach and fixer last long enough that you can get the larger packs from freestyle, but they'll last you quite a long while.