Flash recommendations for Canon QL17 GIII

[Jon Shumpert]

I just bought a Canon QL17 GIII a few days ago and have started to look for a small flash to carry along with it. I know Canon made a flash specifically for this camera, but I am looking for recommendations for other alternatives to the Canolite. I would prefer something non-dedicated with auto settings for the aperture on the flash itself, and manual settings too. I know that is a lot to hope for in a compact flash. I like the size of the Metz 34 CS2 and the auto settings. Something along those lines would be nice, but it wouldn't have to be of the build quality or price of the Metz. Thanks for any and all suggestions. I just ordered light seals today and I am looking forward to using the camera.

 

[MattKing]

If you find something with a guide number similar to a Canolite, you can take advantage of the built in connection between aperture and focus distance that the camera and flash offer.

 

[reddesert]

Just about any flash with manual and A modes will work. The Canolite or similar allows you to use GN mode, but that was more important before flashes had their own sensors with A modes.

If you step up in flash size a little bit to something like the Vivitar 283 or Sunpak equivalents then you get a bounce flash, which allows more control over lighting.

Since the Canonet has a leaf shutter, you can sync at any speed and control the ambient to flash fill ratio by adjusting the shutter and aperture. This takes a little thought because of the way the meter works, but offers a lot of creative control.

 

[AgX]

I would prefer something non-dedicated with auto settings for the aperture on the flash itself, and manual settings too. I know that is a lot to hope for in a compact flash.

To the contratry, that is the common version to find.

 

[AgX]

The Canolite or similar allows you to use GN mode, but that was more important before flashes had their own sensors with A modes.

Not quite. The classic autoexposure flashes meter based on an average object brightness spread, but fail in cases of dominance of bright or dark areas.
The distance based autoexposue though always gives right exposure, similar to incident metering.

 

[Jon Shumpert]

Thanks for the info. AgX, I know that there are flashes with auto and manual settings, such as my vivitar 285, but couldn't think of any small compact ones. I also have a vivitar 283, but was hoping to find something similar in a smaller package. Thanks for the information on the Canolite. I may look into buying one of those.

 

[AgX]

I have several tiny AE flashes from various makes. I buy what comes along, never looked for something somebody advised.

Well, you mentioned the Metz 34 CS2, in this size the air gets thin. But in this size there are also AE flashes from Osram, Cullmann, Porst and National. With up to 2 auto-apertures.
Also think of the dedicated Minox 35 flashes with up to 3 auto-apertures. Due to their form they would not fit on flat top cameras. But you just have to add inbetween a PC-hot shoe adapter. Or prolong the original foot.

But in the end, at least for same generation flashes: you get, what volume you take with you.

Artificial light is the heel of Achilles with small or even tiny cameras.

 

[narsuitus]

I also have a vivitar 283, but was hoping to find something similar in a smaller package.

I rarely used flash with my Canon QL17 GIII. However, when I did, I used my Vivitar 283. If I wanted something in a smaller package, I could use the small electronic flash unit that came with my Contax G1 rangefinder (Contax TLA-140).

 

[RLangham]

Some of the Olympus flashes are pretty compact and have swiveling emitters for bounce flash.

 

[Bill Burk]

Vivitar 252

 

[AgX]

Just found one from Regula amongst my stuff.
So far I counted 9 recommedations of basically different tiny AE-flashes.

 

[RLangham]

And let me (at the risk of double posting) say this: GN is the secret of good flash. It is a reliable method of knowing the incident light on the subject, and that can be a golden bullet to getting perfect exposure if you know what to do with it. You should find a flash whose guide number, adjusted for your most common film speed and possibly converted into meters if given in feet, matches one of the GN on the aperture ring of the camera, which iirc are 28 20 and 14. This will allow you flash automation like most SLR's from the time period could not dream of. Nikon even made an F-mount lens incorporating the same kind of guide number operations. If it were pre-AI I would have bought it by now.

 

[AgX]

If you find something with a guide number similar to a Canolite, you can take advantage of the built in connection between aperture and focus distance that the camera and flash offer.

Not quite, the GN of the Canolite D is not even stated (though one could find out by metering ore even mertering in comparison with flashss with stated GN).
The Canolite D sets the resp. Canonet automatically in a dedicated distance-based flash AE mode (to my understanding if the camera is Auto-mode). For this a additional contact in the hot-shoe is employed.

However that Canonet model has in addition (as with many Copal leaf shutter models) a generic distance-depending AE flash mode. This offers GNm/100 of 14, 20, 28.
Otherwise correct via the film-speed setting.

I thus rather tend to use a manual flash (or AE switched to manual) with the distance-based AE-mode.

Under the AE flashes hinted above one partially finds a tilting reflector or Thyristor battery saving (e.g. both at Minox), but at least the tilting can be found too at tiny manual flashes.

 

[MattKing]

Not quite, the GN of the Canolite D is not even stated (though one could find out by metering ore even mertering in comparison with flashss with stated GN).
The Canolite D sets the resp. Canonet automatically in flash AE mode (to my understanding if the camera is Auto-mode). For this a additional contact in the hot-shoe is employed.

The advantage of the Canolite D is that through that extra contact it switches the camera to the correct distance dependent AE flash mode without the operator having to do anything. Otherwise it works the same as a manual flash of appropriate guide number.
There is no built in flash metering circuitry or thyristor circuitry - just a fixed output flash with a really useful convenience feature.

 

[AgX]

Matt, I thought I made that clear, but now I realized I left out the respective wording in my post above. Just added that to the sentence on the Canolite D.

With the Canolite D or generic manual flashes (then at appropriate setting at the Canonet) the aperture is controlled by focusing

 

[RLangham]

Matt, I thought I made that clear, but now I realized I left out the respective wording in my post above. Just added that to the sentence on the Canolite D.

With the Canolite D or generic manual flashes (then at appropriate setting at the Canonet) the aperture is controlled by focusing

And note that as a trapped-needle camera it does have exposure lock...the aperture will freeze on whatever aperture it's on when you half-press the button... this is useful for instance if you needed to compensate for bounce flash.

 

[AgX]

And this works in the distance -based AE flash mode too?

 

[AgX]

Concerning distance- versus sensor-AE mode, one could argue that with the latter one could deliberately set the aperture. Yes, but in practice this only works with big flashes offering 6 or so auto-apertures.

 

[RLangham]

And this works in the distance -based AE flash mode too?

Yes, I just tested to see.

 

[mgb74]

Thanks for the info. AgX, I know that there are flashes with auto and manual settings, such as my vivitar 285, but couldn't think of any small compact ones. I also have a vivitar 283, but was hoping to find something similar in a smaller package. Thanks for the information on the Canolite. I may look into buying one of those.

Many older Vivitar and Honeywell flashes had auto and manual. And their size was in keeping with the Canon GIII (it always seemed odd to me to see a big flash on a small camera). They were typically powered by 2 AA batteries. Lots on ebay. If you're looking for new, that might be difficult.

 

[wiltw]

Not quite. The classic autoexposure flashes meter based on an average object brightness spread, but fail in cases of dominance of bright or dark areas.
The distance based autoexposue though always gives right exposure, similar to incident metering.

Could you provide more information about 'distance based autoexposure'?

• I have lived with flash since about 1963, and everything was fully manual back then, no photosensor at all.
• Then along comes photosensor flash which recycles unused charge thru a thyristor back to the power capacitor. But there was no distance factor in that. You were told which aperture to use, and it averaged the full scene, with the subject brightness weakness you already mentioned.
• Then along comes the ability to define not only ASA/ISO, but also to tell the flash what aperture was selected on the lens. Still with the subject brightness weakness you already mentioned.
• Then along comes TTL OTF off-the-film flash automation, Still with the subject brightness weakness you already mentioned.
• I know Canon had distance-based aTTL automation for a bit, to perhaps overcome the subject brightness weakness, but then they decded to abandon that approach as not sufficiently reliable in its exposure control.
• Fast forward to today's digital eTTL (for Canon) which I think is inferior to OTF because it cannot measure off the sensor, and it can run into issues with softbox useage....I use my flash on 'A' rather than nTTL! dSLR flashes say they consider range, but really (for Canon) they look at any metering zones at the same distance as zone of primary focus, and then ignore those zones that exhibit an alarmingly high level of return flash as overly shiny things (mirrors, chrome). But it does NOT use the distance in a Guide Number computation method of exposure. Still with the subject brightness weakness you already mentioned.

The more things change, the more they stay the same! But apart from the aTTL abandoned by Canon, I have never heard of a distance-based AE. So I am intrigued to learn more about a AE flash unit capable of factoring in distance.

 

[AgX]

[QUOTE="wiltw, post: 2317941, member: 28732"I know Canon had distance-based aTTL automation for a bit [/QUOTE]

To me that is a contradiction.


Well, in manual flash exposure you adjust the aperture manually, depending on your distance from the subject. The approriate aperture you read from the film-speed/distance/aperture table are scale on your flash.


In distance-based flash autoexposure you got a manual flash and a flash-autoexposure shutter. At that shutter you set the film-speed of your film and the GN of your flash. That is all. From then on the shutter contols automatically the aperture based on your focusing.

A plain mechanical thing. Copal leaf shutters come to my mind with this feature.


A electrical version of distance-based flash autoexposure was devised by Canon. As it does not control the aperture, but the charging voltage at a dedicated flash, and thus its light output. There is no need for interference at the diaphragm apparatus. Instead only a holding device at the filterring and and a stud at the fucusing barrel is needed. You then add a ring to the front of the lens which is coupled to that stud. Basically one could use the same ring on all lenses of same lens-speeded and same barrel-rotation/distance ratio. The ring then controls a potentiometer depending on the barrel twisting and thus on the distance the lens is focused on.


The advantage of a distance based flash autoexposure I described in one my posts above.

 

[wiltw]

To me that is a contradiction.

A electrical version of distance-based flash autoexposure was devised by Canon. As it does not control the aperture, but the charging voltage at a dedicated flash, and thus its light output. There is no need for interference at the diaphragm apparatus. Instead only a holding device at the filterring and and a stud at the fucusing barrel is needed. You then add a ring to the front of the lens which is coupled to that stud. Basically one could use the same ring on all lenses of same lens-speeded and same barrel-rotation/distance ratio. The ring then controls a potentiometer depending on the barrel twisting and thus on the distance the lens is focused on.

I was not implying that Canon aTTL controlled the aperture! Yes, it was varied flash output, as all TTL flashes ever have been. As I do not have direct experience with aTTL, I only related what I had read more than a decade about it incorporating distance and that method failing.

I just took the lazy way out, and here is the Wikipedia explanation of Canon aTTL

"Advanced-Through The Lens (A-TTL) is a through-the-lens (TTL) metering system that was expanded to support flashes. A sensor inside the camera reads the amount of light being reflected off the film during the exposure. When the sensor determines that the exposure is sufficient, it terminates the flash pulse. A-TTL, first seen on the T90 (which predates the EOS family), is a flash exposure system that adds a brief preflash during exposure metering when the camera is in the programmed exposure (P) mode. The amount of light returned from this preflash is used to determine an appropriate tradeoff between aperture and shutter speed in P mode. Depending on the specific flash unit and whether or not it is set to bounce, the preflash might be infrared or it might be the normal white flash. In an A-TTL system the sensor that reads the preflash return is located on the flash unit; this caused some issues especially when using filters as the filter would cover the lens (but not the sensor outside the lens) thus causing inaccurate settings. Some early Canon EOS cameras also used the A-TTL preflash in non-programmed exposure modes to detect "out of range" conditions; the "out of range" warning feature was dropped on later models, reportedly due to patent conflicts."
​

Now in spite of my prior NOT understanding aTTL another article states:
https://www.cameraexperts.us/canon-eos-flash-photography/attl-advanced-ttl.html

"The original purpose of the A-TTL preflash in those modes (Av, Tv, M) was to provide information to the flash out of range warning light in early EOS cameras... Another use of Distance was that the camera sets the smaller of the two apertures (P mode auto aperture selection for ambient vs. aperture for flash), particularly if the distance to the subject is determined to be fairly close...A-TTL simply ends up setting a pretty small aperture most of the time, to assure wide depth of field, which isn't always what you want."

​

And then the Canon 430EZ (ATTL flash) manual states:

• "If the camera was set to FULL AUTO (green) or "P" mode, the A-TTL program selects an aperture determined by the preflash metering, but also affected by the ambient light meter reading, whichever was the smaller. In general, the program is biased towards maximizing Depth of Field, rather than balancing background and foreground exposure. As a result, photographs shot in A-TTL tend to be well focussed, but with dark backgrounds. If the camera is set to Av, Tv, or M, the A-TTL program"s

Having just found the above descriptions, and with no direct experience of my own with aTTL, I am now as confused as you!

In distance-based flash autoexposure you got a manual flash and a flash-autoexposure shutter. At that shutter you set the film-speed of your film and the GN of your flash. That is all. From then on the shutter contols automatically the aperture based on your focusing.

A plain mechanical thing. Copal leaf shutters come to my mind with this feature.

The fact that it was in a leaf shutter lens makes it somewhat more understandable that 'shutter controls automatically the aperture based on your focusing.' And the flash was simply fixed output.But I cannot imagine any electronically controlled Copal. Even a Seiko shutter has electronic regulated shutter speed, but a mechnically dialed in aperture selection.




The advantage of a distance based flash autoexposure I described in one my posts above.[/QUOTE]

 

[MattKing]

The distance based flash that AgX refers to is just a manifestation of the Guide Number concept. The aperture and the focus are coupled mechanically - as you adjust the focus, you are changing the aperture,
The Canolite turns that system on automatically. If you use a different manual flash, you have to both turn the system on and set the guide number. From then on the Canonet works the same way.
Some modern Canon cameras can do the same thing electronically using auto focus and the electronically controlled aperture.

 

[wiltw]

Thx for additional insight, Matt