Fixing-out old exposed paper for reuse.

AnselMortensen · Mar 27, 2023

Hi,
I acquired some old textured paper that I know was fogged/exposed to light.
My goal is to fix it, wash it, dry it, and then coat it with liquid emulsion.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it shouldn't matter if I fix it out in a well-lit room, right? ...the paper's already been exposed to light.
(Of course, coating, etc. will be done under safelight.)
Any caveats?...never done this particular dance before.
Thanks!

MattKing · Mar 27, 2023

I'd be concerned about it printing out.

pentaxuser · Mar 28, 2023

MattKing said:
I'd be concerned about it printing out.

I am not sure what you mean by this, Matt. Can you help me? My layman's brain says that if the paper has been exposed to light but never developed then if it is transferred to fixer without ever seeing the light of day then the paper remains white forever and can be coated as if it wasn't darkroom ppaer in the first place.

My logic here may be faulty so where has it gone astray?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Don_ih · Mar 28, 2023

If you put the paper in fixer in a fully lit room, it will get no opportunity to print out, especially if you use rapid fixer.

Don_ih · Mar 28, 2023

pentaxuser said:
I am not sure what you mean by this, Matt.

When you expose undeveloped photo paper to light, it will fairly quickly start to change colour - that's what printing out is. Printing out paper was commonly used for making photographic proofs that were given to customers. They would only be viewable for a short period of time because they were unfixed (so they'd just end up black rectangles). You could fix printing out paper to make the print permanent. Enlarging papers are to be developed and they don't print out as strongly as old printing out papers - but they do still develop when exposed to light. If you look up Lumen Prints, you'll see examples of images made on photo paper without the aid of developer.

FotoD · Mar 28, 2023

pentaxuser said:
My layman's brain says that if the paper has been exposed to light but never developed then if it is transferred to fixer without ever seeing the light of day then the paper remains white forever and can be coated as if it wasn't darkroom ppaer in the first place.

That sounds right, IF there hasn't been enough light to create a print out image.

Look at lumen prints for example. Those prints never touch a developer, the image is instead created by bombarding the silver halides with sunlight. After that the print may be fixed for permanence and lose it's colour, or just kept like it is to preserve the colors for a while.

AnselMortensen · Mar 28, 2023

Thank you for the responses, everyone!
I will fix out the paper under safelight conditions, and maybe try some under subdued room light as a test.
It would be a lot more convenient to be able to do it during daytime in a darkened room than having to wait until after dark.

pentaxuser · Mar 28, 2023

Don Heisz said:
When you expose undeveloped photo paper to light, it will fairly quickly start to change colour - that's what printing out is. Printing out paper was commonly used for making photographic proofs that were given to customers. They would only be viewable for a short period of time because they were unfixed (so they'd just end up black rectangles). You could fix printing out paper to make the print permanent. Enlarging papers are to be developed and they don't print out as strongly as old printing out papers - but they do still develop when exposed to light. If you look up Lumen Prints, you'll see examples of images made on photo paper without the aid of developer.

Thanks Don I wonder if all Matt meant was that you need to avoid it being exposed to daylight before fixing it? You make a good point as well in #4 which I hadn't considered

pentaxuser

MattKing · Mar 28, 2023

No, I meant that a printed out paper may be different when it is subsequently fixed than one that is fixed out without exposure.
Which may make the paper unsuitable for the OP's needs.
An unfixed lumen print - in this case a photogram:

That is, however, done with more light than one would find under normal daylight illumination for the time it takes to fix out paper.
What concerns me is whether the printing out process might make small changes in the paper in that short time.

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 28, 2023

I've fixed out fibre-base photo paper in full room lights for carbon transfer printing, without issue.

Bill Burk · Mar 28, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
I've fixed out fibre-base photo paper in full room lights for carbon transfer printing, without issue.

I think that’s probably the best answer from direct experience. Room light in a reasonably short time, (e.g., within a few hours). But bright daylight for several hours will cause images to appear.

I’d do it in the darkroom sink with white light (but maybe I would switch out the 200 watt tungsten open bulb that I usually use for a 60 watt).

Unless safelight conditions are easy enough to work under, I think subdued light would be best.

MattKing · Mar 28, 2023

FWIW, when I screw up and forget to switch out the white light lever in my enlarger (or a few other examples) and start a print exposure with everything set wrong, it isn't unusual for me just to accept the screw up and immediately bin the undeveloped sheet.
When I do, I can see the paper start changing colour and building density in minutes - so I know it is printing out at least a bit just from the light in the darkroom when I'm not in safelight only mode.
Whether that printed out image is completely removed by subsequent fixing out, and left in the same condition as paper that never received such exposure before being fixed out, I'm not sure.

Don_ih · Mar 28, 2023

MattKing said:
Whether that printed out image is completely removed by subsequent fixing out, and left in the same condition as paper that never received such exposure before being fixed out, I'm not sure.

If the emulsion gets printed out any significant amount, it won't fix out completely. But pulling a sheet from a box in room light and putting it immediately in fixer won't allow it to print.I wouldn't do it in sunlight, though.

AnselMortensen · Mar 29, 2023

OP here, reporting back....
I only had 14 11x14 sheets to work with, so I didn't test the room-light hypothesis.
I fixed out 6 sheets under safelight conditions, and they all look great, now drying.
I'm saving the rest to try lith printing...if a test lith print shows the paper is too fogged for lith, I'll fix out the remainder under safelight conditions.
I have other paper to play with for lith printing, so all good.

AnselMortensen · Mar 30, 2023

OP here, again.
One sheet had a very faint line of "printing-out" density on it...a shadow from where the paper wrapping let light in when the box was opened in room light.
That sheet will be my test sheet or test strips.
I'm glad I did the fixing out under safelight conditions....thanks, all!

Fixing-out old exposed paper for reuse.

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