Fixing in table salt solution

mrred · Oct 7, 2013

jnanian said:
... in order to get the color tinge out of the film.
(tmy, tmx and tmz at least )

I'm not sure what the big deal was here. I always use regular hypo and I don't see what the side effects could possibly be. The only valid issue I have seen would be with some pyros.

Rudeofus · Oct 7, 2013

mrred said:
I'm not sure what the big deal was here. I always use regular hypo and I don't see what the side effects could possibly be.

The main "side effect" is that Sodium Thiosulfate takes over three times as long as Ammonium Thiosulfate to fix film at the same molar concentration. Since T-grain films seem to be notoriously hard to fix properly (as indicated by the magenta cast that weak or used fixer leaves on the film), people tend to use the best fixers possible for these films.

mrred · Oct 7, 2013

I'm not entirely sure the cast is unfixed silver. A couple years ago I put some "coloured tmy" in the window for a few months with no change. The reason I did this test was that I was told the cast would go away with exposure to uv. I guess both are a myth.

I have read here that a bath of sodium sulfate would clear it up. ((there was a url link here which no longer exists)) post #6

I will concede the time. I rotory process and tend to go long anyway. Salt would be too long for me, but is an alternative.

removed account4 · Oct 7, 2013

hi mrrred:

to be honest i don't think it really matters the sort of fixer used ... i was always told to use speed fixer
mainly because, well, when i learned photo-stuff the teachers used sprint chemistry (speed fixer ), and not old skool hypo ...
but the more i read and think about it, it seems to matter less and less, and it seems a lot easier to use hypo than speed fixer ( low tech )
i think you are probably right about the cast, from what i remember whenever i got "it" i just washed the film a little
more and it went away, not necessarily over fix ... i was just being a parrot to be honest
" squawk use speed fixer to get rid of the magenta cast, squawk"

john

removed account4 · Oct 7, 2013

Rudeofus said:
The main "side effect" is that Sodium Thiosulfate takes over three times as long as Ammonium Thiosulfate to fix film at the same molar concentration. Since T-grain films seem to be notoriously hard to fix properly (as indicated by the magenta cast that weak or used fixer leaves on the film), people tend to use the best fixers possible for these films.

hi rudeofus

i was more concerned with using the salt to stabilize and then fixing,
thinking that too much fix or salt or that "stuff" could bleach the film
or paper as i have always heard (but not experienced) over fixing will do ...

john

mrred · Oct 7, 2013

Would there be a difference between rock or sea salt?

Gerald C Koch · Oct 7, 2013

The real test for complete fixing is to use the Kodak test solution. if residual silver is present this would be shown by a color independent of any film dyes.

The Stone · Dec 7, 2013

Alan Johnson said:
Hello PU,
I'm not familiar with the early work but here it is stated that Fox Talbot used a concentrated salt solution for fixing in his early work so yes I think fixing would be permanent:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/1924221@N25/discuss/72157629895741409/

The works fixed in salt were not archival the ones survived were stored in complete darkness for the entirety of their exhistance par viewing by dim light

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hjesus · Aug 16, 2015

Hi, I am the guy, Chronocrator, that started this at Flickr!

Why did you use 150g/600ml and not 150g/500ml? According to my long experiments, a small increase in concentration brings a lot in fixing time. If you want to repeat this make following: put 150g salt in a heat resistant beaker and pour 500 ml very hot water, just boiled, and stir until most of the salt is diluted. This takes several minutes, maybe 20. Then filter the solution with coffee filter. This solution will not recrystallize for 24 hours and better if you dissolve some other salt in it like Potassium Bromide. Then try this for fixing films. If you use normal grain films like Ilfolrd FP4 or Fomapan 100 and so on, it will take less than 24 hours. T grain films need 48 hours or more to be (bad) fixed but scannable.
Regards!

Alan Johnson · Aug 16, 2015

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daguerreotype
Re fixing:"Daguerre's initial method was to use a hot saturated solution of common salt"
This is the earliest use probably, but in a different type process to Fox Talbot.

cliveh · Aug 16, 2015

I think we need to stop using the word fixed in relation to salt, as it is merely stabilised.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 30, 2018

Alan Johnson said:
Hello PU,
I'm not familiar with the early work but here it is stated that Fox Talbot used a concentrated salt solution for fixing in his early work so yes I think fixing would be permanent:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/1924221@N25/discuss/72157629895741409/

No, it wasn't and William Herschel recommended to him at the timeto use sodium thiosulfate (hypo), which worked a ton better. Sodium thiosulfate is still the working ingredient in all commercial fixers today.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 30, 2018

RalphLambrecht said:
No, it wasn't and William Herschel recommended to him at the timeto use sodium thiosulfate (hypo), which worked a ton better. Sodium thiosulfate is still the working ingredient in all commercial fixers today.

sorry this should read sodium or ammonium thiosulfate is the working ingredient in today's fixer.

trendland · Jan 30, 2018

Alan Johnson said:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/1924221@N25/discuss/72157629528867358/
I developed 2 test strips of Agfaphoto APX 100 for the same times in Fomadon Excel (similar to Xtol) at 23.5C.
One strip was stopped and fixed normally in proprietary chemicals.
The second strip was stopped with one wash of water at 27C then fixed for 24hrs @ 28 +/- 2 C in a solution comprising 150grams table salt in 600ml water.
The tank was kept in a warm cupboard (hot water cylinder) and agitated about every 2hrs except during 8 hrs when it was only agitated once.
Conclusion:
The print from the negative fixed in table salt solution is entirely satisfactory but held side by side with a print from the proprietary fixer negative it is slightly more grainy.
See scans of 0.1 in square sections of negative, processed identically.

Warning Warning Warning - folks Do you hear the sirenes?
You better know : Pull up / Pull up immediately from ATC - Service ?
Just remember : One of the worst failures in bw (films and prints) is incorect fixage.
If you don't believe : Use table salt as fixing solution.
with regards

BAC1967 · Jan 30, 2018

I did a few tests "fixing" in salt about 3 years ago. The negatives have been stored in the dark and still look good but I don't expect them to be archival. The reason I did this was because I travel for work a lot and often develop film in my hotel room. I wanted to see if I could develop (caffenol) and fix (salt) film with simple store bought chemistry. I mixed up 225g of iodized table salt into 750ml of distilled water (equivalent to 300g salt in 1L), that's about all the salt that can be dissolved in the water. I let it sit at room temperature for about 48 hours giving it agitation whenever I happened by. The first image is a comparison of two negatives, "salt fix" and normal fix. So far I have not needed to do this, I usually find a way to bring some fix with me.

Alan Johnson · Jan 30, 2018

I don't see why salt fixing should not be archival if carried out for long enough.
Fox Talbot stuck with quick fix salt stabilization because it gives a much better print color than the yellow obtained at long times .
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fox-talbot-and-salt-fixing.141074/page-3#post-1928815

trendland · Jan 30, 2018

Alan Johnson said:
I don't see why salt fixing should not be archival if carried out for long enough.
Fox Talbot stuck with quick fix salt stabilization because it gives a much better print color than the yellow obtained at long times .
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fox-talbot-and-salt-fixing.141074/page-3#post-1928815

Alan - you won't seriously recomand the use of alternate fixing from using fixer bath times 72hours - with strong hope if this fixing last to more than 10years ?

with regards

PS : Yesterday I read an article a guy buried 120 films in the soil of his own garden.
3 years later he dig the film up again.
If you would imagine such result ?

with regards

PS : This guy better never dig up such films again.

Gerald C Koch · Jan 30, 2018

Rudeofus said:
If you look at these tables, you will see that Silver Chloride is quite soluble in Sodium Chloride, but that Ammonium Chloride works even better. Silver Bromide and Silver Iodide, of course, won't be easy to fix that way, but fortunately most common table salt contains Iodide which works as stabilizer. Likewise, the Thiocyanate you mentioned as anti caking agent will rather work as stabilizer, not as fixer.

If you have to fix film and just can't possibly get your hands on any trace of Thiosulfate, I would recommend multiple bathes of concentrated Ammonium Chloride at elevated temperature, with each fixing step no longer than 10 minutes. There is no need to wash between fixing steps in such a setup.

First the iodide disproportionates to elemental iodine and iodate ion and so is useless even if it were in amounts high enough to fix silver bromide emulsions, Same thing for thiocyanate there just is not enough present.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 30, 2018

BAC1967 said:
I did a few tests "fixing" in salt about 3 years ago. The negatives have been stored in the dark and still look good but I don't expect them to be archival. The reason I did this was because I travel for work a lot and often develop film in my hotel room. I wanted to see if I could develop (caffenol) and fix (salt) film with simple store bought chemistry. I mixed up 225g of iodized table salt into 750ml of distilled water (equivalent to 300g salt in 1L), that's about all the salt that can be dissolved in the water. I let it sit at room temperature for about 48 hours giving it agitation whenever I happened by. The first image is a comparison of two negatives, "salt fix" and normal fix. So far I have not needed to do this, I usually find a way to bring some fix with me.

View attachment 194455

View attachment 194459
View attachment 194460

walking in Fox Talbot's foot steps!

BAC1967 · Jan 30, 2018

RalphLambrecht said:
walking in Fox Talbot's foot steps!

No, he knew what he was doing.

Gerald C Koch · Jan 30, 2018

BAC1967 said:
No, he knew what he was doing.

Until Hershel suggested thiosulfaate Talbot didn't have much choice.

Rudeofus · Jan 31, 2018

Gerald C Koch said:
First the iodide disproportionates to elemental iodine and iodate ion and so is useless even if it were in amounts high enough to fix silver bromide emulsions, Same thing for thiocyanate there just is not enough present.

Wouldn't metallic Silver quickly reduce any Iodine or Iodate formed that way? At least Iodine is known to work as bleach. You will therefore end up with grains which are covered with a thin layer of Silver Iodide, and that'll be stable for a while assume it's not exposed to too much light.

Fixing in table salt solution

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency