Fixing Fixer

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George Nova Scotia

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Is there any way to fix rapid fixer? I've three or more large bottles of Rapid Fixer some Kodak some Ilford all with the dreaded pale yellow deposit. Past its prime. Is there any way to bring it back to life, to redissolve the precipitate. Diluting and stirring doesn't help , tried that with a magnetic stirrer, just managed to pulverize the flakes.

If not I guess this stuff is destined for the hazmat pickup next week.
 

mshchem

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Nope, oxygen reacts to form pure sulfur precipitation. The only way I have been able to keep straight rapid fix concentrate is by filling small bottles. I've had this happen several times over the years. Once you open the concentrate mix it all and store the working solution in full quart bottles.
Doesn't matter if it's Ilford, Kodak, color or black and white.
 

Rudeofus

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You could add Sodium Sulfite to dissolve the Sulfur precipitate, but this would still leave Sulfate behind (Thiosulfate + Oxygen <===> Sulfate + Sulfur), and Sulfate reduces fixing speed. Also, the reaction Sulfite + Sulfur <===> Thiosulfate happens in alkaline medium. As you raise the pH of your mix, smelly Ammonia will leave your fixer. Unless you are prepared to either avoid, or deal with Ammonia escaping from your liquid, you're probably better off if you just throw out the fixer bottles.

PS: The Sulfur you see is not the biggest problem. There are also tiny Sulfur particles which will readily go through any filter system you can muster.

PPS: Neutral fixer (often sold as 'odorless') lasts much longer than slightly alkaline fixer (typical rapid fixer). I have neutral fixer working solutions last for months in half empty canisters at room temperature (Central Europe).
 

Anon Ymous

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PPS: Neutral fixer (often sold as 'odorless') lasts much longer than slightly alkaline fixer (typical rapid fixer). I have neutral fixer working solutions last for months in half empty canisters at room temperature (Central Europe).
Perhaps you meant to say slightly acidic fixer?
 

Rudeofus

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Perhaps you meant to say slightly acidic fixer?
Sorry, yes: typical rapid fixers are slightly acidic (pH ~ 5.5) and last less long than neutral or alkaline fixer (pH >= 6.5)
 

pdeeh

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The only way I have been able to keep straight rapid fix concentrate is by filling small bottles.
that's interesting.
I've had a 5l container of Champion Amfix Universal fixer open for over 40 months now without any signs of deterioration.
 

R.Gould

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that's interesting.
I've had a 5l container of Champion Amfix Universal fixer open for over 40 months now without any signs of deterioration.
Snap, I have never had a problem with 5 liter of fixer, either Champion or Tetenal, which are the cheapest around, normally a 5 liter bottle will last me 2 or 3 years, and not giving problems
Richard
 

darkroommike

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I have both Ilford Hypam and Kodak Rapid fix concentrates right now that went bad. Neither is very old. I bought the larger size for economy now need to dispose of 4 liters of the 5 liter jugs. Lesson learned.
 

adelorenzo

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Over the past few years I went through dozens of 500 ml bottles of Ilford Rapid Fixer that were given to me, all of them were fairly old and had flakes inside. I made no effort to remove the flakes, just used the fixer as normal without any issue at all.

I finally used them all up so I am now buying it new in 5 L jugs.
 

Sirius Glass

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My fixer never gets broken. It may be exhausted, but never broken. Mix new fixer.
 

Gerald C Koch

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Any acidic fixer unstable and will eventually sulfurize. Oxygen does play a role as it reduces that amount of sulfite which acts as a preservative.The greater the acidity and storage temperature the faster this occurs. Store fixer in a cool not cold place. As with all photo chemicals do not buy more than can be used in a reasonable time. This time is based on your processing schedule.
 

mshchem

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that's interesting.
I've had a 5l container of Champion Amfix Universal fixer open for over 40 months now without any signs of deterioration.
My C-41 Flexicolor Fix, No problem at all. I've had the fix component of RA-4 go bad in a cool darkroom in a month. Ilford Rapid fix takes a couple years. I have a friend that had a 5 gallon Kodak Rapid fix he tried to give me, 15 years old, unopened, full of sulfur. I buy smaller containers and make up 5 liters of working at a time. I think keeping the concentrate warm helps to keep it from going bad (no science here just a hunch). I still use home brew Kodak F6 old school fixer when printing fiberbase.
Peace, Mike
 
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George Nova Scotia

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Thanks for the info. Looks like I have a few litters of concentrate to dispose of. The Kodak was likely very old when I bought it as the second last photo shop in the area was closing down. I was surprised how fast the Ilford stock failed but I think Gerald may have a clue. My darkroom and chemicals are in an upstairs room that can get very warm in the summer (no AC here) so it likely quickened it's demise. Lesson learned the hard way. I still of lots of powdered fix to use up and should try and get some rapid fix ordered in before it gets too cold to rick shipping lquids.

Thanks for you replies.
 

Anon Ymous

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While we are at it, can anyone comment on the keeping properties of Ammonium Thiosulfate 58% solution? I assume it keeps fairly well, but any first hand experience would be welcome.
 

Rudeofus

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Well, I have solution here which has been with me for a couple of years, with no signs of deterioration.
 

CMoore

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I have both Ilford Hypam and Kodak Rapid fix concentrates right now that went bad. Neither is very old. I bought the larger size for economy now need to dispose of 4 liters of the 5 liter jugs. Lesson learned.
How old Are/Were they.?
 

Down Under

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Many years ago (in fact many more years ago than I care to recall in numerical terms), an old timer who ran a studio in my home town, taught me a simple trick toimprove the life of fixer. He said he got it from old Kodak literature, by this he most likely meant 1920s or 1930s.

Adding 25 ml of fresh Kodak fixer (from a new bottle) to a mixed batch of older fixer (by this I mean from a long outdated bottle).

Adding 1-2 grams of sodium sulfite to the old-new fixer mix. Premix the sulfite in hot water and add it to the mix. Be sure to count the additional liquid as part of the final total mix, eg 250 ml, 500 ml or 1000 ml, whatever you are mixing up as your final mix.

Filter several times. I use Melita coffee filters with a clump of cotton wool on the bottom. The guck this picks up (and removes from the fix mix) never ceases to amaze.

Don't overuse the old-new fixer mix. Turf it after a reasonable number of films. Best to mix it in small batches (I do 250 mls at a time), use it for a few rolls, and then throw it out.

This has worked for me for about, say, 40 years. Visual inspection of my negatives from the '70s and '80s show no deterioration due to bad fixing.

Of course I can make no scientific claims for these recommendations. If others with more knowledge of photo chemistry than I have, care to comment, I will be very interested.
 

darkroommike

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How old Are/Were they.?
Not sure on the Rapid Fixer but five years? The Hypam was about two years old. In the future I will write acquisition dates on bottles and decant to smaller bottles with very little head space.
 

Rudeofus

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Acidic fixers were the norm when emulsions were not properly hardened in the factory. Typical gelatin has a melting point around 20°C, so some hardening does have to take place at some point. The most commonly used hardeners (Chromium Alum or Potassium Alum) needed acidic environment to work, since alkaline environment would precipitate Aluminum Hydroxide, therefore ancient fixers had to be quite acidic.

With today's properly prehardened emulsions (pretty much all you can get these days AFAIK) there is no reason to use acidic fixers.
 
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