Fixer recommendations for home developing.

[Chuck1]

The eco one I was talking about is avaliable from B+H or adorama

 

[koraks]

OK, I don't know that product, but if you pull up the MSDS for it, you'll find its an ammonium thiosulfate fixer. Well, 99.9% sure in any case. Same rules w.r.t. washing etc. as with any other fixer.

 

[xkaes]

It doesn't have to be ammonium thiosulfate -- although that is, far and away, the most common chemical. Any fixer with ammonium chloride or ammonium-whatever will be "rapid". The key ingredient is the ammonia ion.

As to ammonia and "ECO"????? As koraks said, anyone can call anything "ECO" -- but that doesn't really mean anything. "ECOsystem friendly", "ECOnomical"????

My first thought is that the form ammonia takes in a fixer makes little difference to the environment. Volume is probably more important.

 

[koraks]

As to ammonia and "ECO"????? My first thought is that the form it takes makes little difference to the environment. Volume is probably more important.

What's important is mostly how much silver is dissolved in the fixer. The thiosulfate as such is of little concern, although it can result in eutrophication of surface waters if dumped in excess.

Any fixer with ammonium chloride or ammonium-whatever will be "rapid". The key ingredient is the ammonia ion.

Well, sort of - the absence of large amounts of sodium ion is also a requirement. A fixer among the lines you describe will/can indeed be 'rapid'. I don't think any commercial brands sells a fixer that's made this way, because the solubility limits preclude this being made into a concentrate that can be used as a regular fixer (1+3 or so). For a DIY solution, it does work, although it may end up more expensive than just buying some commercial rapid fixer. It depends a bit on how cheaply you can source the ammonium chloride. It doesn't have to be expensive, but you'll have to buy it in fairly large quantities. The sodium thiosulfate, too, but that's the easy one as it's often sold as a pool supply.

 

[xkaes]

Since this topic has surfaced, do you think a sodium-based fixer would be more or less "ECO-friendly" than an ammonium-based fixer? I've never thought about that. They would both remove the same amount of silver.

 

[koraks]

do you think a sodium-based fixer would be more or less "ECO-friendly" than an ammonium-based fixer? I've never thought about that.

Me neither, to be honest. I doubt it makes an appreciable difference, though.

One thing I can imagine that makes a difference is the fact that the ammonium ion is essentially organically-active nitrogen. This is a subject that has garnished attention from policy makers in Europe (so I'll not divulge too much as per forum regulations) since it's part of the nitrogen cycle and hence plays a role in eutrophication (see earlier comment above). A similar argument doesn't hold for sodium thiosulfate. So in this sense, I'd expect a sodium thiosulfate fixer to be more 'eco'.

However, as often with these things, it probably gets complicated and a whole lot different if you look past this obvious superficiality. I don't know for sure, but expect that the capacity of a sodium thiosulfate fixer to be lower than ammonium thiosulfate. If this is true (!), this means that you need more of it to get the same amount of fixing done, basically. This means a higher expenditure on manufacturing (energy) and logistics (again). If we assume that ammonium and sodium thiosulfate end up having the same manufacturing and logistics costs - which is likely not the case. For one thing, sodium thiosulfate tends to come in the pentahydrate form, which means you're lugging around a lot of water when it comes to logistics. On the other hand, I suspect (again, you'd need to verify) that the production of ammonium thiosulfate is probably more energy intensive.

We could go on from here - lots of nuances and assumptions to check. This is what makes LCA's so darn complicated and the seemingly simple question "which is better" very difficult to give a straight answer to. I wish it were different!

One thing is sure, however: in spent fixer, the main environmental concern will always be the silver. So in that sense, the only real questions are how much film & paper you fix, and how you dispose of the spent fixer. But that second question opens up a whole new can of worms....

Sorry about the long answer - that's not even an answer at all! As you can understand from all this, I just happily purchase my fixer, try to be a bit sensible about how I do things, but try not to worry too much...what's left of my hair is mostly grey already. No need to make matters worse!

 

[Alan Johnson]

This?

https://www.freestylephoto.com/static/pdf/msds/legacypro/453023_LEGACYPRO_ECO_PRO_NEUTRAL_FIXER_6.23.20.pdf

Eco Pro seems to be a brand name, not a claim of unusual properties in this fixer.

 

[xkaes]

One thing I can imagine that makes a difference is the fact that the ammonium ion is essentially organically-active nitrogen. This is a subject that has garnished attention from policy makers in Europe (so I'll not divulge too much as per forum regulations) since it's part of the nitrogen cycle and hence plays a role in eutrophication (see earlier comment above). A similar argument doesn't hold for sodium thiosulfate. So in this sense, I'd expect a sodium thiosulfate fixer to be more 'eco'.

That was my though as well. So for ECO-conscious photographers, a sodium-based fixer (which means longer fixing times), along with a hypo-clear (to shorten the wash time), along with as little hardener as possible (for the same reason), and a silver remover method would be the way to go.

Sounds like a whole new thread.

 

[xkaes]

This?

https://www.freestylephoto.com/static/pdf/msds/legacypro/453023_LEGACYPRO_ECO_PRO_NEUTRAL_FIXER_6.23.20.pdf

Eco Pro seems to be a brand name, not a claim of unusual properties in this fixer.

Thanks for that. I'm not surprised. Lots of products add "ECO" to whatever they are selling. Just another gimmick. But, I've seen worse. And, of course, the fixer has no silver in it, so is not technically responsible for putting the silver down the drain.

 

[Chuck1]

The legacy pro is the one I was inquiring about, it does say eco friendly on the packaging.
I'll stick to heico nh5 and perma wash.

 

[lamerko]

This is nonsense. Ammonium thiosulphate is an additive to nitrogen fertilizers and is used in extremely large industrial quantities. The other popular chemical in the recent past - sodium thiosulphate has applications in... the food industry. In theory, even seawater could be used as a fix (probably of no practical importance) - sodium chloride (table salt) should also work as a (very weak) solvent.
What will make any fix toxic is the silver dissolved in it after use. So much for "eco" labels.

 

[xkaes]

Maybe the "ECO" means that the packaging is ECO-friendly -- even AMAZON cardboard boxes are now marked "ECOfriendly - using less cardboard".

 

[loccdor]

Yeah. Like hotels claim to be eco if they give you one towel instead of two. Greenwashing is the term. Mostly done for cost-saving or public relations rather than for real considerations about the environment.

 

[nosmok]

I've been using the Eco-Pro Neutral liquid fixer for years now with my Caffenol-based development regime. No complaints at all. A batch lasts thru several months and/or many rolls/ many, many sheets. If I did more Tmax than I do, I'd go through it a lot faster for sure.

 

[koraks]

This is nonsense.

It is - but then again, it was highlighted above that in this case, the brand as such is Eco-Pro. Of course, one could make a similar argument about naming their brand 'Eco', especially if it doesn't really have much of anything to do with doing 'eco-stuff' (whatever that may be!) Either way, in this case, the 'eco' isn't really about the fixer as such. Although you could say that based on the arguments you give, fixer is pretty much the most eco darkroom chemical imaginable, apart from water.

 

[f/Alex]

I think OP is looking for fixer where the working solution has decent life expectancy, rather than for powder or concentrate with extra long shelf life. Once mixed, the working solution from powder fixers wouldn't last longer than ones mixed from concentrate. Ordinary powdered fixers also work perfectly fine, though you'll need longer fixing times than with rapid fixers. Mixing your own seems very much like overkill to me if the idea is just to tide them over for a few months until they get access to the communal dark room again, and likely to work out to be more expensive.


That works too, but I wouldn't use the same fixer for both color and B&W work. That is to say, I wouldn't fix one roll of C41, then one roll of B&W, then another few rolls of C41 etc. Instead I'd want separate working solutions for the C41 and the B&W film.

I'd prefer not to fuck with powders. I'm rlly looking for a B&W fixer that'd affordable with a decent working solution expectancy. I've used sprint's stuff in the past?

 

[f/Alex]

Keep in mind that "conventional" sodium-thiosulfate-based fixers are not recommended for Delta and T-Max films. They not only take longer and exhaust more quickly with theses films, but they may not be able to fix the films adequately due to the fact that these films use a lot of iodide compounds, which sodium-thiosulfate fixers have a hard time converting to soluble compounds. Many other modern emulsions use some iodide in their formulations as well, so, just to be certain, it's probably best to stick to rapid fixers for film.

Best,

Doremus

I work a lot with tmax 100, it's one of my fav film stocks. So I would need something that doesn't suffer from extreme takeup from that.

Fix time doesn't matter too much, I just kinda put some music on my ipod and chill for a bit. I stand develop a lot of things.

If you keep your chemical in air-tight light-tight bottle in cool area, it should last the whole summer before the school starts again.

I'm not running the AC all summer. NYC electrical bills don't pay themselves.

I have used sprint before in uni, but only as a one-shot, how is it as a reusable solution? My worry with sprint is more so that, using as a one shot with 2:8 dilution is going to lead to me going through a lot of jugs to hold it before I can hijack my darkrooms fixer scrubber in 3-4 months time.

 

[xkaes]

I'm rlly looking for a B&W fixer that'd affordable with a decent working solution expectancy.

Developers and fixers all have relatively bad longevity. It's OK if you don't mind endless testing. That's one of the many reasons I do everything one-shot.

 

[f/Alex]

Developers and fixers all have relatively bad longevity. It's OK if you don't mind endless testing. That's one of the many reasons I do everything one-shot.

I can't do one-shot because I *really* don't have the money for paying for disposal of things.

 

[khh]

Sounds like you should buy a rapid fixer. I'm not familiar with Sprint, but looking it up Sprint's Record Speed Liquid Fixer looks to be a standard acidic rapid fixer, and the data sheet claims capacity to fix 30 rolls per liter of working solution (so 150 films from a 1l bottle). That would should work well. Ilford's Rapid Fixer would also be a good choice, they give a capacity of 24 films per liter of working solution (so 120 films from a 1l bottle). Just get the cheapest rapid fixer you can easily get, and it should work well for you.

 

[xkaes]

I can't do one-shot because I *really* don't have the money for paying for disposal of things.

How are you dealing with disposal now? One way or another, you have to do it.

 

[f/Alex]

How are you dealing with disposal now? One way or another, you have to do it.

Put it in a jug and drop it in my uni's darkroom once I can swipe in again when semester resumes in like 3 months. Honestly no clue what i'll do with my C41 chemicals once they're used to depletion, i'm not supposed to have anything C41 related in my uni's darkroom, I may just kinda drain it down the lab sink diluted when no one is there.

 

[xkaes]

Sounds like you should buy a rapid fixer. I'm not familiar with Sprint, but looking it up Sprint's Record Speed Liquid Fixer looks to be a standard acidic rapid fixer, and the data sheet claims capacity to fix 30 rolls per liter of working solution (so 150 films from a 1l bottle). That would should work well. Ilford's Rapid Fixer would also be a good choice, they give a capacity of 24 films per liter of working solution (so 120 films from a 1l bottle). Just get the cheapest rapid fixer you can easily get, and it should work well for you.

And keep in mind that if a fixer says X number of rolls per Liter, or whatever, the fixer is not actually dead. You just need to extend the time in the fixer. Depletion does not happen 100% all at once, like a light switch. It happens gradually with exposure to film (how much unexposed silver remains), and time (it degrades on its own).

 

[koraks]

Honestly no clue what i'll do with my C41 chemicals once they're used to depletion

If you use a bleach, replenish it and don't throw it away in the first place. This goes for both the 'proper' brown bleach (Kodak, Fuji etc.) and the ferricyanide 'hobby' bleach.
The developer isn't particularly different environmentally speaking from any B&W developer so you can add it to the B&W developer in your uni darkroom when it's being disposed.
The fix is ultimately simply fix. Dispose the same way as B&W fix.
If you use blix, add the blix to the fix that'll be disposed at the uni. Pray nobody notices it's darker in color. And consider switching to separate bleach & fix in the future. Cheaper in the long run, too.

 

[f/Alex]

If you use a bleach, replenish it and don't throw it away in the first place. This goes for both the 'proper' brown bleach (Kodak, Fuji etc.) and the ferricyanide 'hobby' bleach.
The developer isn't particularly different environmentally speaking from any B&W developer so you can add it to the B&W developer in your uni darkroom when it's being disposed.
The fix is ultimately simply fix. Dispose the same way as B&W fix.
If you use blix, add the blix to the fix that'll be disposed at the uni. Pray nobody notices it's darker in color. And consider switching to separate bleach & fix in the future. Cheaper in the long run, too.

I bought a blix based kit just as a try and it and see if I wanna continue shooting color. honestly, I was told my my uni's lab tech that if I can pursued the OSHA guys to allow it he'd be fine with C41 in the lab. ppl have done it in the past.