Fixer formula

[Emilio_]

Hello, I am looking for a simple fixer formula. On a chemical supply store I have found this formula.

"To prepare 1 liter of fixer, mix:

• 240g of Sodium Thiosulfate
• 10g of Sodium Sulfite
• 60ml of Sodium Bisulfite"

There is no info about dilution and fixing time.

Would you recommend? and could you help with providing info about dilution and fixing time?

Thanks

Emilio

 

[ruilourosa]

Add ammonium cloride to speed things up and cut up with the bisulfite in order to raise pH... Also speeding fixing and washing...

 

[Don_ih]

There is no info about dilution and fixing time.

That is standard (non-rapid) fixer. It is at working strength (don't dilute). It's practically impossible to over-fix with it - it would take a long time. It's good for two-tray fixing of paper at about 3-4 minutes each tray. When fixing film, take a sample of your film and time how long to fix it clear. Double that time for developed film. It's not a good fixer for TMax films.

 

[Emilio_]

Add ammonium cloride to speed things up and cut up with the bisulfite in order to raise pH... Also speeding fixing and washing...

Thanks. I have several questions:

- What quantity of ammonium chloride?
- Not understood what I should do with sodium bisulfite
- Is this formula at working strength?
- How long does it take to fix the paper?

 

[Emilio_]

That is standard (non-rapid) fixer. It is at working strength (don't dilute). It's practically impossible to over-fix with it - it would take a long time. It's good for two-tray fixing of paper at about 3-4 minutes each tray. When fixing film, take a sample of your film and time how long to fix it clear. Double that time for developed film. It's not a good fixer for TMax films.

Thank you. Some questions for you too

- How do you do two-tray fixing?
- Do you have a suggestion for rapid fixer?

 

[Don_ih]

Two tray fixing is using two trays, both with fixer, sequentially, to fix paper. The majority of fixing will take place in the first tray, the second tray will definitely complete fixing. With regular fixer, it's probably not a good idea to rely on a single tray.

I'd advise buying any ready-made rapid fixer, since it will almost certainly be more economical than making your own.

 

[Rudeofus]

Thanks. I have several questions:

- What quantity of ammonium chloride?
- Not understood what I should do with sodium bisulfite
- Is this formula at working strength?
- How long does it take to fix the paper?

Take a look at this article for a working formula. It uses an amount of Ammonium Chloride, which worked well for me and others, and it has near neutral pH, which has lots of advantages. Acidic fixers are slower, they smell and have awful shelf life, and they wash out much slower. Only reason for using one is if one wants to avoid the stop bath due to space constraints.

PS: I am a bit confused by your formula "60ml Sodium Bisulfite". Sodium Bisulfite is a solid at room temperature, and there is no reason to provide a volumetric measure here.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

That is standard (non-rapid) fixer. It is at working strength (don't dilute). It's practically impossible to over-fix with it - it would take a long time. It's good for two-tray fixing of paper at about 3-4 minutes each tray. When fixing film, take a sample of your film and time how long to fix it clear. Double that time for developed film. It's not a good fixer for TMax films.

Here is a small collection of formulas I use and which have proven to work well:

 

[ruilourosa]

Here is a small collection of formulas I use and which have proven to work well:

Ammonium thiosulfate is not as easy or cheap to get as sodium... And is highly higroscopic in solid form...

 

[pentaxuser]

Have a look at this video by John Finch of Pictorial Planet. It involves 3 chemicals only, is a rapid fix and does not meed Ammonium Thiosulfate



pentaxuser

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Well, I'll stand up for the Old School - I use a S. Thiosulfate fixer (and by the usual Photo/rio/net/... logic, so should everyone else).

Fixer choices seem to be only slightly less contentious than stop baths.

There must be a dozen formulas for S. Thio fixers and I doubt if any double blind comparison could tell the difference between them.

S. Thiosulfate can be had for cheap if you are willing to wait for a good price and buy in bulk. S. Thiosulfate crystals keep forever. In comparison A. Thiosulfate is pricey and goes off (relatively) quickly, throwing a yellow precipitate.

So the film sits in the fix for a few minutes longer - BFD. After developing there is lots to clean up and the timer goes off to dump the fix before I am done with cleaning, drying and putting away.

Fix as thou wilt.

 

[koraks]

A. Thiosulfate is pricey and goes off (relatively) quickly, throwing a yellow precipitate.

Yeah. Although the solution can be filtered at that point, yielding a clear and perfectly usable solution. The solution is quite stable, too. It's an extra step, though, so it's inconvenient. And it doesn't change anything about the much higher price of a. thiosulfate than the sodium species.

One promising way to get hold of a good supply of cheap a. thiosulfate is in the form of fertilizer. Specifically, it's used as an ingredient for compounded liquid NPK mixes. So far I've not been able to procure any, but I admit to only having done online searches for the stuff - I've not actually called around yet. It's listed here and there, though.

So far I've never really liked the s. thiosulfate quasi-rapid fixers. Dissolving the thiosulfate costs quite a bit of time, you need a heck of a lot of it, too, and overall I never really found it justified the marginally lower cost (expressed in expenditure per roll of film or sheet of paper) of a ready-made rapid fixer. YMMV of course, and it can be fun to DIY.

 

[Emilio_]

Have a look at this video by John Finch of Pictorial Planet. It involves 3 chemicals only, is a rapid fix and does not meed Ammonium Thiosulfate



pentaxuser

If my calculations are correct it would cost me 50eur for 25L of working solution, so 2eur per liter, which is quite good. If I buy 5L of Ilford hypam fixer already made (with which I could do 25L at 1+4) it would cost me 66EUR, saving about 25eur for 25l of solution, not that much. However I am afraid that if I open the 5L jar and I do not use it quickly, the fixer would go off, whereas the homemade fixer (the agfa 304) being in powder I can keep it for much longer. Is that correct?

Also, do you know the fixing time of the agfa 304 for RC and baryta paper?

Thanks a lot.

 

[xkaes]

If you are starting off with individual dry chemicals, you can forget about degradation -- and you save because you only mix as much as you need (10ml or 100ml or 1000ml) -- even though it takes a little more time.

 

[Emilio_]

Jsut a question about the Rapid fix Agfa 304. Are there side effects if I use it for silver emulsion on metal or glass? I ve heard that it is advisable to reduce acidity as much as possible to avoid the emulsion peeling off. Someone working with emulsion on glass uses (as a precaution) just water as a stop bath and, for fixing, a standard fixer (which I guess is less acid?).

But again, I am really not knowledgeable about photographic chemistry...

 

[koraks]

a standard fixer

That's an undefined term, really. Maybe they mean a "plain hypo" fixer, which is basically just sodium thiosulfate in water. It's pH neutral. You could consider this. Just dissolve a few tablespoons of sodium thiosulfate into a cup of water and use that as a fixer. Fix for twice the amount it takes for the image to clear.

The Agfa 304 recipe given above should be relatively mild on a sensitive emulsion such as a poorly adhered gelatin emulsion on glass. Btw, a hardened gelatin emulsion on glass that has been allowed to dry, as in a typical dry plate application, tends to adhere fairly well to the glass. Provided the glass was properly cleaned when the gelatin was adhered to it, that is.

 

[Emilio_]

That's an undefined term, really. Maybe they mean a "plain hypo" fixer, which is basically just sodium thiosulfate in water.

her formula is 300g of sodium thiosulfate + 20g of sodium sulfite + water to 1L. We have worked together on my emulsioned metal plates and the fixing is quite slow (clearing time between 5 and 10min, so double that)...

 

[Emilio_]

The Agfa 304 recipe given above should be relatively mild on a sensitive emulsion such as a poorly adhered gelatin emulsion on glass

Great, I ll try. I ordered the raw chemicals. It will be the first time I prepare my own photo chemicals I think it should work well, as pre-coating the plate with chome alun really strenghtens the emulsion. We have tested the method exhagerating developing time, fixing time and washing time and nothing has peeled off...

 

[bdial]

One important note,
The commercial fixers come with suggested fixing times because they tested.
When you venture into the DIY world, you should test to make sure you the timing you pick is actually removing all the silver, this is especially important for papers since you can't rely on the traditional clearing test that works for film.

There are several threads with details on how to make up a retained silver test solution using selenium toner.

 

[Emilio_]

One important note,
The commercial fixers come with suggested fixing times because they tested.
When you venture into the DIY world, you should test to make sure you the timing you pick is actually removing all the silver, this is especially important for papers since you can't rely on the traditional clearing test that works for film.

There are several threads with details on how to make up a retained silver test solution using selenium toner.

I know with film and with liquid emulsion the right time for fixing is the double of the clearing time, if I am not mistaken. Regarding paper, for the rapif fix agfa 304, I found the formula in the darkroom cookbook (slightly different than the one above) and the time for paper, they say, is between 3 and 5 minutes.

But, as I am venturing in any case into the DIY world, as you say, and I might experiment with other formulas, could you point me to an existing thread where I can learn how to carry out a test with selenium toner, please?

 

[Emilio_]

I know with film and with liquid emulsion the right time for fixing is the double of the clearing time, if I am not mistaken. Regarding paper, for the rapif fix agfa 304, I found the formula in the darkroom cookbook (slightly different than the one above) and the time for paper, they say, is between 3 and 5 minutes.

But, as I am venturing in any case into the DIY world, as you say, and I might experiment with other formulas, could you point me to an existing thread where I can learn how to carry out a test with selenium toner, please?

The fomula I have found in the book is the following:

- Water 52C, 750ml
- Sodium thiosulfate, 200g
- Ammonium chloride, 50g
- Potassium metabisulfite, 20g
- Water to make 1L

 

[xkaes]

That fixer is fine -- as are many similar ones, such as the first one you listed in Post #1. The particular formula is not important. What is important is that whatever formula you choose -- for whatever reason -- you need to run tests on EACH of your films and EACH of your papers to determine the minimum amount of fixing time for EACH -- it might be the same, but probably not. These tests do not use much film or paper at all -- only small test strips. And they don't take much time or effort.

 

[Alan Johnson]

When I tried Agfa 304 I found it to soon go cloudy on re-use with subsequent films, which was attributed to sulfur deposition due to it being rather acidic (a lot of metabisulfite). It may well be that the formula linked by Rudeofus in post 7, which contains less metabisulfite, lasts longer in that it will fix more films before going cloudy. I have not tried it .

 

[xkaes]

One approach to whatever fixer you use, it to make sure it adequately fixes whatever it is that you want to fix -- AND that the fixer usefulness it largely expended in the process. In other words ONE-TIME-USE.. You'll save $$$ doing that and not have to waste time and energy figuring out if the stuff can be re-used again. Use it up the first time. It's really just simple tests -- is the "stuff" adequately fixed, and is the fixer close to exhaustion. There is a very happy -- and cheap -- medium.

Using tubes makes this infinitely easier.

 

[bdial]

Reply #10 in this thread has some guidelines for testing silver retention , https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/some-diy-fixer-questions.186360/post-2459951