Fixer Capacity Question

[jglass]

If Hypo-check shows the fixer is good AND it clears film in under 1 minute, is it reliably fresh for fixing PRINTS and FILM even if it has just exceeded the manufacturer's capacity recommendation?

This is for Silvergrain Clearfix, if that matters.

I know it is foolish to try to save pennies by skimping on the fix, but I try to minimize disposal of chemistry at all stages. That' why I use this fixer, but I also want to minimize disposal.

Thanks.

Jeff Glass

 

[RobertV]

The limit is 2g Ag+ ions / 1 ltr. and therefore the hypo-check is done.
If this is OK you can use it.

Depending of type of film-fix, classical cubical or t-grain type there can be a difference of 40% in capacity.

 

[removed account4]

hi jeff

one way to check your fixer is to
take a small piece of exposed leader
and see how long it takes to fix/clear ...
when it takes 2x that amount of time, it is time
to make new fixer ...
i'm not familiar with the fix or the hypo check you are using ...
some suggest is isn't good to fix film and prints in the same stew ...

have fun!
john

 

[jglass]

I do use different fix for film and print. But I'm reaching capacity on both and want to avoid dumping if possible. As noted, this fix is currently clearing exposed undeveloped film in less than 1 minute. I figure if I fix film and print for over 3 minutes, I'm okay as long as the HypoCheck is also looking good.

Anyone think differently?

 

[Ian Grant]

The leader test is an odd one, I've used it in the past but these days i rarely shoot 35mm. It's very dependent on the film type as well.

So Fomapan 100/200 clear very quickly, Delta 100/400 and Tmax100/400 slowly and HP5 somewhere in the middle, using exactly the same fixer, this is from observations of films processed in the same session (30 mins ago), and although I didn't time the clearing it was under 30 seconds for the Foma and more that 2 minutes for the Delta 400 which is normal for T-grain & similar films.

So a long clearing time isn't necessarily an indication that the capacity has been reached.

Ian

 

[Robert Hall]

For archival prints it has been shown that in a single bath fix the capacity of 1 gallon of working solution can fix 4 8x10 prints. If a 2 bath is used the capacity can go up from 4 to 10 times that amount. Fixing for half the time in the first, and the other half time in the second. (Time in fix with the 2 bath method is very important.) This is quite different than the 40 8x10s per liter of fix that Ilford Hypam states on the container.

As Richard Knoppow mentioned on another list from the same discussion that commercial volume fixing could probably account for the higher volume mentioned on the label where archivability is not critical.

One should determine the importance of the how long one wants the print to last.

Several people have mentioned 2 different tests for complete fix. One is to put a drop of 1:9 selenium toner on the rebate edge of a well washed print and waiting for a couple minutes to see if a stain appears. Selenium will stain if there is fix left in the print as well as change color if there is still silver halides in the emulsion.

Another test is the sulfide test. This is essentially mixing sepia toner and putting a drop on the rebate edge of a print and checking for the same stain. This works because with the 2 step sepia toner one bleaches the print creating halides and then (re)developed in the sulfide bath.

I want my prints to be archival as I sell (ha! or try to sell) my prints to the public. I generally fix to the minimum standards set by the process above and check via selenium toner.

 

[Anon Ymous]

For archival prints it has been shown that in a single bath fix the capacity of 1 gallon of working solution can fix 4 8x10 prints. If a 2 bath is used the capacity can go up from 4 to 10 times that amount. Fixing for half the time in the first, and the other half time in the second. (Time in fix with the 2 bath method is very important.) This is quite different than the 40 8x10s per liter of fix that Ilford Hypam states on the container.

Ilford states clearly at the datasheets for both Hypam an Rapid, that if a high level of permanence is required, then silver concentration should be kept below 2g/l. That's roughly 40 FB 8x10 prints. If the highest permanence properties are required, silver concentration should be kept below 0,5g/l, which translates to 10 prints, that would be 38 prints through 1 US gal of fixer working solution. Where did that 4 8x10 prints per gal come from?

Several people have mentioned 2 different tests for complete fix. One is to put a drop of 1:9 selenium toner on the rebate edge of a well washed print and waiting for a couple minutes to see if a stain appears. Selenium will stain if there is fix left in the print as well as change color if there is still silver halides in the emulsion.

Wait, selenium toner has fixer in it. How would a badly washed print with retained hypo become stained if the toner itself has fixer? BTW, this test is recommended by Kodak as an alternative of the sulfide test you mention later. KRST solutions last far more than sodium sulfide solutions, which have to be replaced periodically; it's more practical.

Another test is the sulfide test. This is essentially mixing sepia toner and putting a drop on the rebate edge of a print and checking for the same stain. This works because with the 2 step sepia toner one bleaches the print creating halides and then (re)developed in the sulfide bath.

Both tests work this way. Actually, I've seen the results of poorly fixed prints with both toners. Luckily, that was very early for me, so I've been very cautious since then. A badly fixed print will get stained in both sulfide and selenium toner solutions. This also works for film. Try putting a drop of KRST 1+9 on a cleared, but not fixed film leader and you'll get stain.

 

[removed account4]

The leader test is an odd one, I've used it in the past but these days i rarely shoot 35mm. It's very dependent on the film type as well.

So Fomapan 100/200 clear very quickly, Delta 100/400 and Tmax100/400 slowly and HP5 somewhere in the middle, using exactly the same fixer, this is from observations of films processed in the same session (30 mins ago), and although I didn't time the clearing it was under 30 seconds for the Foma and more that 2 minutes for the Delta 400 which is normal for T-grain & similar films.

So a long clearing time isn't necessarily an indication that the capacity has been reached.

Ian

ian

very true, different films clear at different times .

for the clip test at least, it is important to use the same film, each time you test your fix ...
you can use whatever film you want, but just be consistent ... ( sorry for being unclear )
if it clears in 30seconds when the same film takes 1 min to clear your fixer is spent.

you can test this method against whatever you currently use ...
or if you want to test this with two different clips of film, one t grained one normal,
the tests will pretty much give you the same answer ..
( even though the tgrained film will take dramatically different times to clear )

john