First time Lith and FB paper

[Robin Guymer]

What an interesting hobby a darkroom can be. I have only just started to get my normal RC paper prints looking half decent and now I've dived into the complex world of Lith printing on fibre paper. My first hurdle was working out the difference in using FB paper like as to which side of the FB paper actually prints. Turfed out 2 test strips after exposing the wrong side and changing the developer thinking it was the cause. I was grateful to discover that the print side is on the rather large curved concave side so at least the 10 x 8 holder then holds the paper down flat. I am using Ilford multigrade FB warm tone double weight and for a first time user it is so different to use than RC paper. It starts off stiff, curved and unyielding then once in the developer fix and water it is soft and pliable and actually feels like it has lost weight, then it dries back to the stiff heavy state it started off at.

I read lots of articles on Lith printing before my first session and one of the best tips I found was that the Ilford FB warm tone is difficult with LD20 Lith because when it is slipped into the fix it seems to almost double in contrast or intensity within seconds. Hence the tip I read was to pull the print out of the developer when the image is still very light. This makes it very difficult to judge the best time. First print too dark, second too light and third better but still not good. I would have preferred a different paper but couldn't find any of the recommended brands for sale.

Washing FB paper seems to be a science in itself. There appear to be more variations of methods and advise than there are to developing film. Generally its seems that there should be 30 minutes of washing in a tray with flowing water and the tray emptied a number of times. Or the use of HCA for 5 minutes reduces the washing time to 20 minutes. So I have a few queries here. Just experimenting with these test prints, I can feel that in the wash water the print has like a greasy surface feel. Softly rubbing my fingers over the print in the water does not seem to affect the image so I did this all over the print quite vigorously in the water with the print on the flat bottom of the tray. I also took the print out of the water and ran the windscreen squeegy down it and back in the wash repeated 3 times. The image didn't change and it seems to have dried out with no marks. So my question is have any tests been done with methods of wiping down with wet glass cleaning cloth, rubbing with fingers in water or multiple squeeging and washing, that can reduce whole washing time?

What to photograph for Lith prints? It seems to open up a whole new dimension of photography subjects. What looks great as a normal print may not be suitable for Lith but subjects that are more say arty a very suitable for Lith prints. I will be looking for a lot more diverse character in my photography now to give a better subject range to work with.

Just musing here but maybe a question many ask of themselves is what am I doing this for? What is the purpose of making all these expensive and time consuming Lith prints besides self satisfaction? Do you give them away, store them in a draw, sell them at markets? Is their a purpose and an end game to pursue this? Just interested in ideas here and maybe some justification.

Well here is my first disaster. Your criticisms welcome.

Interesting that the best print scanner I have is not the HP flatbed but rather the iPhone 7. I have played around with digital sliders to try and get this the same as the print so it is sort of close in colour but maybe a bit much sepia.

Thanks for reading.
Robin.

 

[scheimfluger_77]

I am by no means a lith expert but you a full range of tones here. Not easy to get in lith prints. As to why do it, do we really need a motivation other than the development of our craft? I think lith printing is a great way to get out of the rut of just another gray scale print.

 

[David Allen]

There are many apocryphal statements about washing FB paper. However, hosted on the UK analogue forum, is an article called ‘Mysteries of the Vortex’ which is the most comprehensive article on print washing that I know of. It was written by Martin Reed of Silverprint (Martin basically saved the supply of fibre paper for the UK during the 1980s and Silverprint became the market leader for all things analogue thereafter) in 1996 and published by the American magazine, Photo Techniques.


You can find the two-part article here:


http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296&highlight=vortex


http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=344&highlight=vortex


As to your example lith print, it does not look very much like a lith print to me. I would suggest that you Google Anton Corbijn who used Lith printing a lot for his Star Trak project. Simply put the following into the search field “Anton Corbijn + Lith prints” or “Anton Corbijn + Star Trak" and then view the ‘Images’ tab and then you will see some fine examples of what good Lith prints look like.


The trademark ‘look’ for me with lith prints is to pull the print when the blacks are very gritty with a stark graphic look and the highlights are rendered in very subtle and soft shades of beige, yellow or red/brown. Selenium toning lith prints also produces wonderful results.


A friend of mine does a lot of lith printing and his prime tips for getting high quality and more predictable results are:

• Always give the paper a minimum of 2 stops more exposure than you would for a conventional print.
• His favourite Lith developer is Moersch Special Edition Lith Master Set (https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/shop/lith/4) but you can also get good results with Moersch Easylith Lith Developer (https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/shop/lith/34/easylith).
• He also highly recommends Moersch’s teaching PDFs (https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/knowhow).
• Because fresh Lith developer doesn’t work very well he always puts a couple of sheets of paper that have been exposed to white light in and lets them develop to a deep black. At the end of each Lith printing session he then bottles the old used Lith developer. At the next Lith printing session he adds a bit of the old Lith developer to the fresh developer at the beginning of the new session. This gives the best chance of getting good results right away.
• You always have to remember that the light tones are controlled by the exposure and the black tones are controlled by the development time.
• Usually you mix Part A and Part B in equal quantities. However, increasing the amount of Part A increases colour and contrast but exhausts the developer faster and increasing the amount of Part B reduces the colour and contrast but makes the Lith developer last longer.

Have fun with your experiements.


Bests,


David.

www.dsallen.de

 

[Dali]

Great links to Martin Reed's paper, thanks!

I have little experience printing lith with Ilford Multigrade FB WT paper. In fact, it was included in a paper batch I bought last year. I tried several times but I never been convinced by the results.

 

[Robin Guymer]

There are many apocryphal statements about washing FB paper. However, hosted on the UK analogue forum, is an article called ‘Mysteries of the Vortex’ which is the most comprehensive article on print washing that I know of. It was written by Martin Reed of Silverprint (Martin basically saved the supply of fibre paper for the UK during the 1980s and Silverprint became the market leader for all things analogue thereafter) in 1996 and published by the American magazine, Photo Techniques.
You can find the two-part article here:
http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296&highlight=vortex
http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=344&highlight=vortex
.......................................
...........................................
Have fun with your experiements.
Bests,
David.
www.dsallen.de

Thank you David,
That was a fantastic reply to my query on Lith and washing FB paper. The vortex articles explained the science behind it and I will be a lot more comfortable on how to wash prints properly now and without using excess water. I've taken on board your assessment of my first attempt at Lith and viewing Anton's work gives me something to strive towards.
Many thanks.
Robin.

 

[jimjm]

Robin, also take a look at some of Tim Rudman's lith prints at http://www.timrudman.com/printing-processes/lith/1 .

He's written a few Lith printing books, which I believe are out of print but definitely useful.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Robin, I did a lith workshop with Tim Rudman a few years ago and I will repeat what he told us then (and is also in his books), sprinkled in other info from Wolfgang Moersch (both used to be regular contributors on this site, but no longer are):

• Develop for the blacks. Determine what part of the print you want black (a rock a tree branch, whatever) and pull the print when you are happy with what that looks like.
• Expose your print for the highlights. If you pull your print with your blacks where you like them, but not your highlights, then you need more exposure. Keeping the print in the developer longer will not bring the highlights in fast enough (or at all) before the blacks go too far. That said, if part of the print looks about right, but other part needs a little more time, pull the part that’s correct out of the developer and keep the other part in. It works for some images.
• The more over exposure you have, the more dilute the developer should be. If you want a more contrasty print with little mid-tones you would use a stronger developer with only 1-2 stops overexposure, on the other hand, if you want more details (like your print above), then more exposure (2-5 stops) and more dilution. Moersch has more details about this on his site.
• If things aren’t working for you with the Ilford, I highly recommend getting some paper that is known to lith well, like Foma MG or Oriental warmtone. You are right - paper and lith developer is expensive, but the process and look is definitely worth it (I love it the best out of all darkroom work) - so it’s worth finding out in the beginning what works for you and what you like. In the beginning I loved all the strong colours that lith gave, but now I find I prefer more muted sandy colours, which means I never “season” the developer with old brown or other sheets of paper, since all that does is get rid of those delicate colours. Also, a lot of current papers that people use for lith are prone to pepper fogging after 4-6 prints - if you season your developer then that only speeds up the process. However, that’s not true of every paper, so it’s worth experimenting.
• Finally, it is worth pulling prints early , or much longer than you think is correct, just to get some idea of how the paper reacts. You may find that what you thought you liked in the darkroom is much different during the light of day. Keep those prints though - they good for experimenting with toners or 2nd pass lith, if you want to try that in the future.

One final note on your washing method - I would stay away from rubbing or squeezing the print multiple times when wet - you can really damage your print that way, and if you plan to do anything else with your lith prints, your manhandling of them can (probably will) show up: lith is a very unforgiving process - things you can do with regular black and white printing and get away with (touching the emulsion with tongs, or fingers, while in the developer) will show up in lith prints, if not initially, then with toning (I found that out in Tim’s workshop, where my fine lith prints had drying marks are all other them once in the toner).

 

[Dennis S]

The biggest surprise to me was the way some of the papers Lithed really well and brilliant while the others we slouches until selenium toned. Keep experimenting is the key it might be expensive but the money I spent on a great print is worth every penny. A lot of paper sellers have the 25 sht packs.
I actually never come into deliberate contact with the print after fixer except for edges but if it shows up on the border and it is covered with mat.
Does anyone have any info on the pros and cons of just using TF 5 fixer with no stop. The ones I did before really changed in the Ilford Fixer after the stop bath. The TF 5 had absolutely no change but they selenium toned very dark a day or 2 later after a dry and press. .

 

[Robin Guymer]

Thanks everyone for your very helpful hints and suggestions on Lith development. I will take all that on board and hopefully improve my technique. Particular thanks to David and Rachelle for your detailed replies which I have printed out for future reference. There is just such a wealth of knowledge in the Photrio community.
Thanks again.
Robin.

 

[dburian]

The biggest surprise to me was the way some of the papers Lithed really well and brilliant while the others we slouches until selenium toned. Keep experimenting is the key it might be expensive but the money I spent on a great print is worth every penny. A lot of paper sellers have the 25 sht packs.
I actually never come into deliberate contact with the print after fixer except for edges but if it shows up on the border and it is covered with mat.
Does anyone have any info on the pros and cons of just using TF 5 fixer with no stop. The ones I did before really changed in the Ilford Fixer after the stop bath. The TF 5 had absolutely no change but they selenium toned very dark a day or 2 later after a dry and press. .

In regards to your note about the use of TF-5, I still use an acid stop with Lith because I don't want the print to overcook past the snatch point. I then give the print a 2 minute wash in clear running water with at least a couple changes of the water in the tray (dump and refill) before a minute in TF-5 to fix and a 30' wash. The 2' wash is an attempt to get the pH of the print closer to neutral so I don't turn my neutral fixer into an acid fixer over time.
I still see some fixing up (loss of highlights) in the fix but it's not as marked as in acid fix and the tones in the dry print come back better after the neutral fix.
Seems like the selenium toner acts faster on prints from neutral fixer but selenium toning is such a moving target due to selenium depletion with use that I wouldn't care to bet anything important on that observation.
Stay happy
Dennis

 

[cbella]

I meant to reply sooner - I've been doing a fair bit of lith printing (mostly Moersch EasyLith, some Rollei, FotoSpeed and Moersch Master's Kit).

I agree with most of the comments above. It may be obvious, but I should mention with respect to: "the light tones are controlled by the exposure and the black tones are controlled by the development time" that, although this is largely true, the two are not mutually exclusive. IE there is still a role for dodging some shadows that are too dark when you develop to the desired contrast/darkness for the overall image, and to burn areas where the opposite is true.

The other point I would like to make is that lith developing is much more sensitive to changes in conditions than is silver gelatin developing. Small changes in temperature can have a significant effect, as will the agitation technique. You can use the latter to your advantage, however. If you like the overall contrast of the image but there is a focal area in which you would like to increase the contrast and darken the shadows, other than burning the area, you can also agitate that area locally with your tongs to increase development of the shadows more focally. I've found that usually somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 to 90 seconds will have the desired effect, but that will vary, depending on your print and what you are trying to accomplish. Of course this will also have some effect on the rest of the image so you may need to adjust your overall development time as well once you start agitating a specific area with your tongs. There is a lot of trial and error involved in lith printing.

What I have also found with lith printing is that there is a wide range of variability in the results, but what is considered a desirable result is equally as variable. Much more so, in my opinion, than in classic silver gelatin printing. Keeping that in mind, my initial impression of the originally scanned print is that it is somewhat overexposed and underdeveloped relative to the result I'd be going for with lith printing. That is, of course, very much subject to opinion.By exposing the paper to less light and developing for a longer period, I think you would improve the tonal range and therefore increase contrast while giving that grainy lith appearance to the shadows that was mentioned above.

A final comment is that the dry-down process (which affects primarily the highlights) with lith printing seems considerably more exaggerated than with silver gelatin printing. I wasn't happy with my tonal range and my highlights in particular until I learned to leave the highlights much lighter/less detailed than what I wanted as a final result, in order to allow for the considerable darkening that occurs once the print dries. This depends in part on the paper you are using and undoubtedly on the type of developer, but I have found that it's not unusual for example, for skies that look quite empty and with little to no tone right after development to end up with the desirable amount of tone and cloud detail after drying. Again, more trial and error, but I'd recommend erring on the side of 'blown highlights' to see what happens.

Lith is a very enjoyable process, but quite the rabbit hole...