First time holding an MF

[Roger Hicks]

A decade or more ago, when 'pro' 35mm SLRs were becoming ever more bloated, I upset a representative of A Major Manufacturer at a trade show by saying that I preferred smaller, lighter cameras, so I used medium format. Stand a Hasselblad next to some of those giant Nikons or Canons...

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Richard Kelham]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the Mamiya 645 series. They are more directly comparable to the Bronica ETRS – and they're still being made (fingers crossed), and the latest even have autofocus should you want to go down that route.

If I were in the market for a new MF system (which I'm not) and had the money (I haven't :-( ) then it's no contest: Hasselblad every time!

 

[Nick Zentena]

Frankly, I don't know why anyone would buy a Bronica over an RB67... Its not just the "1cm wider" negative. The system is just much more capable and flexible, f

How do you figure that? The only thing the RB/RZ can do is rotate the back. At least off the top of my head. I guess the bellows focussing might let the average lens focus closer but I haven't compared.

OTOH if you really wanted to you could fit an ETRSI out with all the parts have have a camera very much like a big 35mm. Okay the winder would be slower but other then that you'd have everything. Metering prism with average and spot. The slow winder. TTL flash. Plus with the grip on I can carry a fully outfitted ETRSI with one hand.

 

[DBP]

A decade or more ago, when 'pro' 35mm SLRs were becoming ever more bloated, I upset a representative of A Major Manufacturer at a trade show by saying that I preferred smaller, lighter cameras, so I used medium format. Stand a Hasselblad next to some of those giant Nikons or Canons...

Cheers,

Roger

Good point. My cousin is shopping for a d***SLR, and keeps putting it off because he wants something as small and inconspicuous as his favorite OM-4 and 24mm combo. (Lenses are also an issue, obviously). One has to wonder why they build d***SLRs so big, it isn't as if they need it for the motor drive. Even the Olympus ones are much bigger than an OM, and one would have thought they would build something Pen sized.

 

[Papa Tango]

Total Cost of Ownership-Return on Investment

How do you figure that? The only thing the RB/RZ can do is rotate the back. At least off the top of my head. I guess the bellows focussing might let the average lens focus closer but I haven't compared.....

Nick, it has a lot to do with making a list of lenses and accessories that are available for the RB series, and then looking at the price in the used market. Every day, I use a program called "Auction Sieve" to filter through a number of different bay auctions. Stuff I use, or am building out, like Mamiya or Beseler. The range of accessories and the prices are almost unbelievable for either. When looking to make the MF jump past my Yashi 124, I looked at Mamiya, Bronica, Hassy, and the price points, variety, service considerations, etcetera, offset any considerations to economize on weight or size.

I find myself becoming a dinosaur, as I have been in this game since the mid-1960s. Many years were spent hanging with old pro's that owned studios, freelanced, operated custom labs, or worked for papers. In the whole lot, only one owned a Bronica system, and it was for his own use, and ended up selling it and building out another rail system. As they told me, and I am discovering, Peter's statement about these is correct. They may be largish, but they are dependable tanks that rarely have any issues.

Perhaps it is the econ development specialist in me, but even in camera equipment I am looking at TCO-ROI. Besides, I have yet to go anywhere with my RB that the bystanders have not been in awe...

 

[Papa Tango]

Side Effects

Just as a side note, prior to the Yashica almost everything I was doing was with 4x5 either in field camera or monorail. A little bit of slow speed 35mm as well. With the putting together of the RB kit, I find that my total approach to photography is changing. For most work, especially in the field the MF aspect as well as the versatility I am finding with the RB system is eclipsing anything that I ever did with 35 (now gathering dust in a cabinet) as well as the 4x5 (selling off all my field camera stuff). There is always the Toyo monorail for things that are just more appropriate, that which requires the range of movements only to be found in a view camera. Now, the thinking is moving toward 8x10 or even larger for that pursuit....

Yes, I suspect that I am shamelessly plugging Mamiya. But the value and versatility are great. Look at what sort of kit has been put together for under $1000 (including other backs, magnifiers, screens, and other accessories that are buried in the backpack and are not visible!!!)

 

[Nick Zentena]

Nick, it has a lot to do with making a list of lenses and accessories that are available for the RB series, and then looking at the price in the used market. Every day, I use a program called "Auction Sieve" to filter through a number of different bay auctions.
.

Ebay prices are too high. All the Bronica stuff I bought at KEH would have cost more on Ebay. The cheaper Mamiya stuff seems to me to be older [often 30 year old stuff] even then it's not cheaper then the ETRS stuff. Right now KEH has a 135mm PE lens in EX+ condition for $205. A similar vintage Mamiya lens would be the KL line? KEH has a 180mm KL in Bargain for $364. Apples to apples the Bronica stuff sure seems cheaper to me.

 

[Papa Tango]

Ebay prices are too high. All the Bronica stuff I bought at KEH would have cost more on Ebay. The cheaper Mamiya stuff seems to me to be older [often 30 year old stuff] even then it's not cheaper then the ETRS stuff. Right now KEH has a 135mm PE lens in EX+ condition for $205. A similar vintage Mamiya lens would be the KL line? KEH has a 180mm KL in Bargain for $364. Apples to apples the Bronica stuff sure seems cheaper to me.

Not to get into a Wintel vs Mac match, but I would say that the PE lens is no better than the standard Sekor C. I picked up a near mint Sekor 127mm for $110, including shipping and 30 day exchange. 90mm C with Lindahl shade for $100. 65mm C with caps and rubber shade, $165. All excellent plus. Just watched a 65mm K/L close out for $187. It takes a lot of monitoring, and the ability to snipe. Lots of opportunities. KEH may seem like a good deal, is probably very safe to deal with, but hardly has the best prices. Check out Shutterblade, they have a liberal return policy, and are half to two-thirds the price of KEH.

It all boils down to the look, feel, and expected photographic style one is seeking. All told, the brand likely does not matter as much as the drive that it gives the photographer to make a finer image.

 

[AeisLugh]

Not to get into a Wintel vs Mac match, but I would say that the PE lens is no better than the standard Sekor C. I picked up a near mint Sekor 127mm for $110, including shipping and 30 day exchange. 90mm C with Lindahl shade for $100. 65mm C with caps and rubber shade, $165. All excellent plus. Just watched a 65mm K/L close out for $187. It takes a lot of monitoring, and the ability to snipe. Lots of opportunities. KEH may seem like a good deal, is probably very safe to deal with, but hardly has the best prices. Check out Shutterblade, they have a liberal return policy, and are half to two-thirds the price of KEH.

It all boils down to the look, feel, and expected photographic style one is seeking. All told, the brand likely does not matter as much as the drive that it gives the photographer to make a finer image.

Thanks for the pointer to shutterblade. looks like it'll be a good source for some extras. The RB outfits aren't as affordable as from KEH (or at least not that I've seen) but some things like lenses and whatnot look to be good deals. Hell, I just put a bit on a zoom lens for my 35mm

 

[Nick Zentena]

Shutterblade [if it's who I think it is] charges quite a bit to ship to Canada. With KEH I can put together an order and save on the total shipping. I've routinely seen Shutterblade prices once I add in shipping exceed similar to better items from KEH. KEH for me is safe because when they rate something bargain it's closer to many other peoples mint.

I consider my PE lenses on par with the one RZ lens I have. The 180mm W-N. The RB C lenses are ancient. They still cost more then much newer Bronica lenses. Even if the quality was a wash I feel better getting newer shutters for less money.

 

[AeisLugh]

Shutterblade [if it's who I think it is] charges quite a bit to ship to Canada. With KEH I can put together an order and save on the total shipping. I've routinely seen Shutterblade prices once I add in shipping exceed similar to better items from KEH. KEH for me is safe because when they rate something bargain it's closer to many other peoples mint.

I consider my PE lenses on par with the one RZ lens I have. The 180mm W-N. The RB C lenses are ancient. They still cost more then much newer Bronica lenses. Even if the quality was a wash I feel better getting newer shutters for less money.

I don't know, the shipping cost didn't look THAT bad. the lens I bid on said the shipping would be 20 bucks US. Considering what SOME places on ebay charge for shipping, that's quite reasonable.

 

[gnashings]

Well, you would probably be perfectly happy with a Bronica - many, many people make pictures light years ahead of anything I will ever make with Bronicas. Its just a case of bang for the buck, faultless reliability and unlimited ability to expand your system. The RB has metered prisms - which I would not waste my money on, as I wouldn't on any MF system of this type - it also has motor wind backs available (although the one I saw is 6x8), abiity to shoot any 120 - based format you choose (short of 6x9) and lenses from old to brand new are available, depending on your needs vs budget.
Example: a ProS body, with a 120 back and WLF and a 90 mm k/l lens for $280, on eBay. All in better than average shape, lens looked pristine. As far as metering goes, I would put my faith in a Pentax spotmeter instead of a battery dependant metering prism anyway.

For a more short term solution you could try working with a TLR or RF - I know its not your ideal, and yes, they have their limitations, but it may be a nice, sub - $100 way to dip your toes in the MF pool. But given the prices of systems that are precisely what you want, the savings are not that significant and to my way of thinking, you may as well just go for it.

Peter.

 

[AeisLugh]

Well, you would probably be perfectly happy with a Bronica - many, many people make pictures light years ahead of anything I will ever make with Bronicas. Its just a case of bang for the buck, faultless reliability and unlimited ability to expand your system. The RB has metered prisms - which I would not waste my money on, as I wouldn't on any MF system of this type - it also has motor wind backs available (although the one I saw is 6x8), abiity to shoot any 120 - based format you choose (short of 6x9) and lenses from old to brand new are available, depending on your needs vs budget.
Example: a ProS body, with a 120 back and WLF and a 90 mm k/l lens for $280, on eBay. All in better than average shape, lens looked pristine. As far as metering goes, I would put my faith in a Pentax spotmeter instead of a battery dependant metering prism anyway.

For a more short term solution you could try working with a TLR or RF - I know its not your ideal, and yes, they have their limitations, but it may be a nice, sub - $100 way to dip your toes in the MF pool. But given the prices of systems that are precisely what you want, the savings are not that significant and to my way of thinking, you may as well just go for it.

Peter.

I've actually been half considering a TLR the last couple days, after seeing that the cost is a bit lower, but I really think I'll keep aiming for the SLR format, simply because that's what I'm used to in 35mm and I've always liked the concept of looking through the lens that actually takes the picture better than having to deal with the offset of a separate viewing lens.

You mentioned being satisfied with bronicas, then talk about the RB, was that a mix up? or am I confused?

 

[Nick Zentena]

Well, you would probably be perfectly happy with a Bronica - many, many people make pictures light years ahead of anything I will ever make with Bronicas. Its just a case of bang for the buck, faultless reliability and unlimited ability to expand your system. The RB has metered prisms - which I would not waste my money on, as I wouldn't on any MF system of this type - it also has motor wind backs available (although the one I saw is 6x8), abiity to shoot any 120 - based format you choose (short of 6x9) and lenses from old to brand new are available, depending on your needs vs budget.
Example: a ProS body, with a 120 back and WLF and a 90 mm k/l lens for $280, on eBay. All in better than average shape, lens looked pristine. As far as metering goes, I would put my faith in a Pentax spotmeter instead of a battery dependant metering prism anyway.

See that doesn't sound cheaper to me. I picked up a mint with full warranty ETRSI from Henry's on Ebay for $400. I could have gotten an older vintage model for even less. Plus the metering prism is great if you want it. The TTL flash is also great. The combination makes fill flash mindless. Or dragging the shutter.

 

[gnashings]

See that doesn't sound cheaper to me. I picked up a mint with full warranty ETRSI from Henry's on Ebay for $400. I could have gotten an older vintage model for even less. Plus the metering prism is great if you want it. The TTL flash is also great. The combination makes fill flash mindless. Or dragging the shutter.

OK, lets say its about the same - I would rather spend my money on a RB. But, what you say about flash is very true - you have to do the math yourself on an RB. Again, I can count on the fingers of one hand how often I use flash - so perhaps this was not foremost in my mind, but a very valid point indeed. Of course, if you are thinking of using a studio set up, TTL flash is not much use to you anyway, and a good incident meter will have to be bought anyway.
This is getting into the "raight camera for ME" rather than "this camera IS better" territory, of course. As with most things, the most help you can be is throw out what you know and hope it helps with a decision. Of course, we all feel a bit strongly about our particular darlings - mine happens to be the RB

Cheers,

Peter.

 

[DBP]

I've actually been half considering a TLR the last couple days, after seeing that the cost is a bit lower, but I really think I'll keep aiming for the SLR format, simply because that's what I'm used to in 35mm and I've always liked the concept of looking through the lens that actually takes the picture better than having to deal with the offset of a separate viewing lens.

You can experiment with using a TLR for almost nothing ($10-$20US), and get good results in the process. Then if you decide you still want an SLR, you at least have a better idea of whether you would be comfortable with a square format, or would prefer to go the other routes (6x4.5, 6x7, 6x8, 6x9). Personally, the only time I am not comfortable using a TLR is for macro work, and most won't focus that close anyway.

 

[AeisLugh]

You can experiment with using a TLR for almost nothing ($10-$20US), and get good results in the process. Then if you decide you still want an SLR, you at least have a better idea of whether you would be comfortable with a square format, or would prefer to go the other routes (6x4.5, 6x7, 6x8, 6x9). Personally, the only time I am not comfortable using a TLR is for macro work, and most won't focus that close anyway.

I've nae seen any TLR's THAT cheap. If I had, I would have bought one already lol. for 10-20 bucks, I'd be perfectly willing to experiment lol

 

[Greg_E]

I scored a couple of Rollei's for $30-$40, but they aren't what I would call users. One was a Rolleicord V that looks like it had a really hard life, and ended up spending some time under water. It is purely parts. The second is a pretty decent first model Rolleiflex 3.8, it's pretty rough, but exactly what I wanted. I plan to completely restore the 'flex. Not sure if it will get a 120 format conversion (I think it's 117 now).

 

[DBP]

I've nae seen any TLR's THAT cheap. If I had, I would have bought one already lol. for 10-20 bucks, I'd be perfectly willing to experiment lol

Look for a Ciro-Flex (aka Graflex 22), or one of the early Yashicas.

 

[AeisLugh]

Look for a Ciro-Flex (aka Graflex 22), or one of the early Yashicas.

I'll start looking around for them.

 

[DBP]

BTW, the Ciro's are also sometimes listed as Ciroflex, Ciro Flex, Circ flex, etc. In their time, they were the best non-professional TLR, and used by some professionals as well. There is a lot of good information on TLRs here Dead Link Removed.

 

[Greg_E]

You can often get Meopta Flexaret cameras pretty cheap too, around $50 for a working camera.

 

[AeisLugh]

You can often get Meopta Flexaret cameras pretty cheap too, around $50 for a working camera.

I'll look, but i haven't even heard of that camera, let alone see any for sale

 

[Greg_E]

There's a guy on ebay that sells them, about as directly from the factory as you can get. I don't know much more about them than that, haven't purchased one yet. Seeing that I have a perfectly good Yashica 635, a Yashicamat that needs work, a Rolleiflex 3.8 that needs work, and a Rolleicord V that is currently in a state of flux, I'm probably good on the fixed lens TLR. A Mamiya C330 may be in my future though (at some time). The Flexaret looks kind of different from the normal TLR.

 

[DBP]

The Flexarets are nice cameras, though laid out a bit oddly. The Mirar lens on the earlier ones is probably close to the triplet on the Ciroflex A-E. The later Belar I believe is a tessar derivative. I use a VI with my Yashicamat 124G when I need to carry two medium format films and an SLR is not appropriate (noise). Didn't mention it because shipping one from the Czech republic to Canada is probably more expensive than the total cost of a Ciroflex. The opposite rule would probably apply in Europe. Of course the Flexaret VI and VII are very cool looking.