First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

Agulliver

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As always, many thanks @Henning Serger for your insights.

I do have a recollection that someone at Harman mentioned 5 years as a timescale, but we don't know exactly what they expect to achieve in 5 years. It would be quite something if they managed to manufacture something on the same level as even Color Plus in five years. But perhaps by 2029 they'll have something at least with the orange C41 mask with colour rendition closer to "normal" consumer films. Even that would surely be an achievement unique in the photographic industry.

As Henning points out, other companies took a decade or so to achieve good colour film manufacture. Even back in the day the giants such as Kodak, Agfa, Fuji Konica took years and millions of dollarpounds. Ferrania arguably also mastered C41 film production...that is just five huge companies that achieved it when film was king and the money was flowing. The fact that far smaller organisations have got even close, is pretty amazing.
 

koraks

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I think such timescale estimates are very problematic, although the underlying reasoning is certainly interesting as it summarizes a lot of relevant information. What makes it difficult to put a tag onto it, is the structural uncertainty associated with such an estimate. The comparison relies on companies that were all in a fundamentally different position on the outset of their color adventure, with entirely different technological and manufacturing competencies, different knowledge base, supply and marketing networks etc. Furthermore, what an estimate should also take into account is what a 'finished' color product would be, which has a lot of subjectivity embedded into it used this way (some might consider Phoenix 'finished', while others would argue than it's only 'finished' when Portra or Ektar quality levels are attained). Finally, what an estimate cannot account for is the possibility of serious setbacks (more rarely, accelerating events) that can occur in a vast R&D undertaking. Not to mention tactical and strategic choices made w.r.t. timing of NPD projects and market introductions.
 

Henning Serger

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Agulliver said:
As always, many thanks @Henning Serger for your insights.
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@Flighter , @Agulliver , thank you both very much for the appreciation.

Agulliver said:
I do have a recollection that someone at Harman mentioned 5 years as a timescale, but we don't know exactly what they expect to achieve in 5 years.
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Interesting, I have not heard or read it in the interviews with Harman. But if anyone here knows more about it and can give a link, that would be highly appreciated.
You are absolutely right that with any given target it is important to know what kind of quality level or positioning in relation to the competition is specified.

Agulliver said:
It would be quite something if they managed to manufacture something on the same level as even Color Plus in five years.
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Honestly, that would really be simply sensational! I don't think it is realistic. Of course I wish I am wrong .
But:
I have discussed this topic with other experts in the film industry as well. And most of them are even a bit more cautious, conservative in their assessments than I am. Most of them think Harman will need a bit longer. But some of them have also been more cautious in their assessments concerning Polaroid and InovisCoat in the past, and were than positively surprised that the development has been faster than expected.

That Harman technology only needed about one year to develop Phoenix based on their XP2 Super, is indeed really fast. Congratulations to Harman for that success! A performance I have the greatest respect for.

Agulliver said:
But perhaps by 2029 they'll have something at least with the orange C41 mask with colour rendition closer to "normal" consumer films. Even that would surely be an achievement unique in the photographic industry.
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Yes, definitely.


Yupp. If you had asked in 1995 or 2000 the film production experts at Kodak, Fujifilm, Agfa, Ferrania or Konica whether a company in the range of only 15 - 200 employees can successfully produce a color film of decent quality, they most probably all would have said no.

My point and my intention of my detailed post / assessment is that we always have to be aware of the fact that colour film - and especially quality colour film - is an absolut sophisticated high-tech product, which is extremely difficult to produce. R&D needs time and money.
It is unrealistic to expect that a small(er) player in the industry can achieve the level of (former) film industry giants like EK, Fujifilm, Agfa, Ferrania, Konica in just some years. You cannot achieve Portra or Provia quality in only five years.
Patience is needed. As I have written, new colour film production by companies like Harman, InovisCoat, ADOX, hopefully Film Ferrania as well is a Marathon. A Marathon that just has started.
And the best we can do is to support those brave manufacturers who have taken the risks of this very challenging endeavour.

Best regards,
Henning
 

SilverShutter

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Apologies if these look too big, I havent uploaded them to Flickr yet so I had to manually add them. Taken with the Rolleicord IV and Phoenix, I think it shows how different it can look in a cloudy or sunny day. I personally love it though, I'm very happy they have released it in 120. Pretty much the only colour film I am shooting in 120 atm.
 

Lachlan Young

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I think it's going to be much faster than that - Harman have (and use) a great deal of cross-fertilisable technology, especially in terms of emulsions. The big jump will happen when Delta/ epitaxial technology gets applied (it was very clearly invented for colour film materials) - and/ or decisions about numbers of layers/ machine passes. I think it's highly likely that Phoenix will acquire a mask and a significant anti-halation improvement within 12-18 months maximum. How long it'll take to build Delta derived colour emulsions is a different matter - there may be an intermediary stage with two machine passes and more XP2 derived emulsions of more varied grain sizes - as I understand it, Ilford's emulsion system is essentially able to be told to make emulsions of a known type to a desired contrast and speed - that alone will radically speed up R&D.

The other bit which seems to have passed some by is that within that initial build of Phoenix, Harman successfully researched and made a yellow dye filter layer - something that took until the 1990s for the industry to successfully research and adopt in place of Carey Lea Silver as the yellow filter layer. This is one of least trivial bits of colour film tech - I think we are majorly underestimating the speed Harman can work at (if the money is there).
 

Romanko

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What is the exposure latitude of Phoenix? From the datasheet and the images in this post it looks like 3 stops, maybe 4 if you are generous.
 

Film-Niko

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If that is so easy as you guess, why had Ilford not implemented it into XP2 long ago? This film was introduced around 1990 as the successor of XP1. Ilford had more than 30 years time to do it.
Phoenix is based on XP2 Super. In an interview with the two Harman emulsionists they said Phoenix has real, measured light sensitivity of ISO 125/22°. From my own tests I can confirm that.
So Harman Phoenix has almost two stops less sensitivity than XP2. But despite that Phoenix has much coarser grain, much less resolution and worse edge sharpness than the much higher speed XP2 Super.
And Phoenix is very very far away from the detail rendition of any Kodak or Fujifilm CN film. There is a very long way to go for them to come even close to the Kodak / Fujifilm standard.

I wish them well. I appreciate their decision to enter the CN film market and I will support them on that journey, and will buy their color films. But I have realistic expectations (and I think Henning's assessment is very precise, the best assessment of that topic I've read so far).
Thinking that Harman can reach the Kodak / Fujifilm standard in color film in only a few years is wishful thinking in my opinion.
 

Lachlan Young

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Ciba's strategic plan had been to get into colour film manufacturing in the 1980s, XP1 was to be the stepping stone into colour coupler manufacture/ coating (Agfa was also transitioning to Kodacolor couplers at about the same time and their BW chromogenic could be seen as having similar purposes). The market changed and Ilford Mobberley ended up B&W specialists. It required significant market changes for Harman to be prepared to take the risk, but the building blocks were there all along.

The problem with Phoenix is that it's too monodisperse - it needs more varied grain sizes, which will have to be achieved via more polydisperse emulsions (unlikely), more layers with different grain sizes emulsions (possible in short-medium term, but would need more machine passes), or sophisticated epitaxial Delta emulsions that behave like multiple emulsions in a thin single layer (probably moderate term). The interlayer behaviour and layer thicknesses all have significant impact on sharpness, speed etc - without couplers, the speed of XP2's emulsions would be 800, so that should give an idea of the speed losses that couplers, filter layers and multilayer colour structures give. The emulsions, while derived from XP2 are considerably contrastier, so they will have had to have a degree of R&D invested in getting them to the right gradient for accepting the mask later. One of the fundamental problems is that people are indulging in ridiculous conniptions to try and pretend Harman don't know what they're doing, when the material evidence they have disclosed blatantly shows they are intent on minimising remaking the wheel with every iteration.
Harman has most of the required underlying technology in-house, once they have the masking couplers built and integrated, I think the iterations will cycle much faster - and that the 5 year outcome may be closer to VPS-III with some more advanced components (if they succeed with integrating Delta emulsions) rather than Color Plus. A multilayer-per-colour Phoenix with internal reflection sorted and thinner discrete layers within each of the colour layer groups would probably be a pretty close approach to Color Plus technology-wise.
 
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Film-Niko

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Lachlan, I know the history of Ciba / Ilford at that time very well. I shot XP1 and Agfa Vario XL at that time as well.

What you are describing in theory lead to the huge challenges in practice. And Delta technology has not been implemented into XP2. Probably for good reasons.
Do yourself a favour and test Phoenix. Compare it to XP2 and current Kodak or Fuji color negative films (been there - done that). Then you will immediately see how huge that performance gap is. It is very unlikely that this massive gap can be closed in only 5 years.
We don't do Harman a favour at all by rising too optimistic expectations. That will only result in huge disappointment afterwards. Not good for Harman!
This thread here is proof of that: Look at all the numerous posts here in which members express their disappointment about Phoenix current quality, and why Harman has not released a "finished quality" product.
 

Lachlan Young

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I've used Phoenix, I know what it can or can't do. It doesn't do well with scanning systems that are inherently expecting standard, masked C-41 developed to a standardised contrast.

If you have a reasonable level of knowledge about colour separation and correction you can get a sense of where it will go, and if you work to its strengths rather than weaknesses it can deliver some interesting results. Harman have been very, very clear that it's a research product, if some of the end users who spend all their time bellyaching about it spent a fraction of that learning basic sensitometry and listening to what Harman's own people are saying about the materials they might be a lot better informed. Oh, and if you read Shanebrook, you can find out that Kodak's product cycle time was/ is much shorter than everyone on here is assuming - 5-10 years might have been the case in 1970s (and that apparently had more to do with the 'wall' between Research and Manufacturing divisions), but it was a fraction of that by the end of the 90s. Harman weren't starting from scratch with only a formula book.

The market for XP2 has never been big enough for it to be completely re-engineered - it's a very niche product overall.

Andrew O'Neill said:
I'd like to see it in sheet film sizes
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I doubt it'll happen until they get to a finalised product.
 
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brbo

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Truth is,

I think it's quite the opposite.

Debbie Downers are a tiny minority in this thread. Most are pretty excited about the film. Even as it is today. While I have no idea on how long it will take Harman to get to their goal, I'd be much more excited and would buy more film in the meantime if I knew that "final" (better to call it "good enough") version is 5 years away instead of 12. The possibility that the next Phoenix batch will be significantly different and might come sooner that later will mean that people who like currently available version of Phoenix will buy more of it since it will most probably never be available again.

Besides, the exact scenario of what you are concerned about has happened (is happening) right now with Adox Color Mission. More than two years ago Adox had a plan to have a new inhouse colour negative film on par with original CM 200... in four years time!!! We now know that we'll be lucky if they have anything to show at all (even Helios) by 2026, yet I don't see Adox's name being affected tarnished by that. Those who know a bit about the state of the matter will understand, those who don't, don't know anything about CM at all. The same would be true with Harman Phoenix.
 

Film-Niko

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You are completely missing the point, the topic we've talked about:
Your claim was that Harman can quite easily implement Delta grain technology into Phoenix and reach the fine grain, resolution and sharpness level of Kodak / Fuji in a time span of only 5 years.
And that is definitely unrealistic. The performance gap in that regard between Phoenix and Ko-Fu is so huge that it is impossible to be closed in only 5 years.


I have Shanebrook's book. But that point is also completely irrelevant because at that time the global market for film was at its absolute high, with 3.5 billion films sold each year. And Kodak being a multi-billion $ giant with a huge R&D department. Kodak's R&D department at that time was much bigger with more staff than the whole Harman technology factory staff today. Harman's R&D team is a tiny fraction of former Kodak, the R&D funding as well.


Lachlan Young said:
The market for XP2 has never been big enough for it to be completely re-engineered - it's a very niche product overall.
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No, the market for monochrome C-41 film was big enough in the 90ies. So big that even Kodak entered it in 1998 with their T400 CN film.
 

Film-Niko

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As a customer I don't have influence on the R&D speed at Harman. But with a realistic attitude and expectations I will be happy about every single improvement, may it be even very small.
But with too high expectations it may be frustrating over the years that the progress is slower than I have hoped or wished for. That is simply a normal, widespread human behaviour.


I have never believed this marketing story. Sounded much too optimistic for me. I appreciate ADOX, buy some of their products regularly, including Color Mission 200. But with that marketing they have not done theirself a favour. I know many photographers who have hoped for more in the direction of Color Mission 200, and were disappointed when they read that that is a dead end for the foreseeable future, and instead an extremely low speed film like Helios is coming.
 

brbo

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Film-Niko said:
I know many photographers who have hoped for more in the direction of Color Mission 200, and were disappointed when they read that that is a dead end for the foreseeable future, and instead an extremely low speed film like Helios is coming.
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But were they sooooo disapointed in Color Mission II development that they stopped buying other Adox products? Cause, if they did not, then Adox is really not taking any hits on being too optiomistic. And just imagine the excitement of film community if Adox came up with a "bombastic" announcement that they might end up with a proper colour negative film in 15 years if the sale of CM 200 goes well.
 

JParker

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A shorter product cycle time on paper is not the decisive factor. Decisive is in which time real, significant and visible improvements can be implemented into a product.
Let's have a look at Kodak's "flagship" product Portra: It was first introduced in 1998. Honestly, it was relatively grainy, and not as fine grained as the competitor Fuji products NPL / NPS and NPH at that time.
Then Kodak needed 8 years for the next Portra generation II, introduction in 2006. Grain was finer, more competitive to Fuji. But not setting a new benchmark.
Then Kodak needed another 5 years for the latest generation of Portra. That generation was a bit finer grained than the Fuji competitors.

So even the migthy Kodak needed 11 years for (and an important part of that it its best time) a significant progress and surpassing its main competitor.

I am convinced that it is impossible for Harman doing even much much bigger steps in technology (which are needed for Phoenix) in half of the time. It is simply not realistic.
 

Lachlan Young

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You're assuming they were constantly working on the next product cycle - which they weren't. From what I can tell, from the instigation (and the money becoming available) of a new product to it being in the market was approx 18-24 months. After that, it will mainly have been whatever work was needed to keep manufacturing it, not completely revising it - the product research team would move on to another project within their particular division. What were once multiple product research teams across several product divisions are now maybe one or two teams - who are often mainly engaged in ongoing day-to-day work to keep the products in manufacture. If Harman is able to afford to create/ dedicate a team purely to Phoenix, that will speed up its iterations a lot.
 

Lachlan Young

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Film-Niko said:
the market for monochrome C-41 film was big enough in the 90ies
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The 1990s market was so big it easily supported all sorts of minority market things as manufacturers were in a mad dash for market share. Kodak did several chromogenic B&W's (T400 and Portra) as they fitted into certain professional market workflows (e.g. wedding/ commercial portrait) where everything was going through minilabs on to RA4. They weren't really meant for the hobby market, and indeed had masks that made them far more useful on to RA4.

But when Fuji wanted to get a share of that market, who did they turn to? Ilford.

You're very desperate to try and attack innovative approaches that aren't held back by the technological and computational limitations of 1990. Harman chose the emulsion(s) for Phoenix that they know work with couplers - they weren't going to take a much bigger risk on emulsions that should work with couplers but have not been integrated with them (yet) - that will be the medium term goal. The Delta emulsions were evidently intended for colour products from instigation (and indeed some Fribourg colour technical products apparently received them, long before they fed down into B&W camera films) - the problem with all the controlled crystal growth products was that they were 10-15 years ahead of the computing power needed to manufacture them at large scale, which only really arrived in the 1980s. By the 1990s, however, emulsion simulation and modelling seems to have become widespread - and that allows a much smaller research staff to be radically more effective. I think Ilford's strategy is to get a set of couplers, filter/ inter-layers and masks that work well, then worry about refining the emulsion layers/ numbers. Doing it the other way round demands putting the cart before the horse and re-inventing wheels repeatedly. Harman have the benefit of seeing Agfa etc's struggles and learning from that.
 

BrianShaw

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Lachlan Young said:
You're assuming…
From what I can tell…
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For some “Debbie Downers” who are “bellyaching”, that’s the impediment to becoming a FanBoy.

(Not referring to any specific assessment by you, personally… just the paucity of authoritative inside information in general.)
 

JParker

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Lachlan Young said:
You're assuming they were constantly working on the next product cycle - which they weren't. From what I can tell, from the instigation (and the money becoming available) of a new product to it being in the market was approx 18-24 months.
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No. Portra and the cine films have been the most important and flagship products at Kodak at that time. After 2003 no further developed consumer film products have hit the market. The R&D was focussed on making the cine films and Portra finer grained. To achieve progress on that high level you have to work quite continously on that, at least a with a part of the team. You cannot simply switch that on and off and have market-ready progress only 18 months later. From 2003 to 2011 the main focus of the film R&D at Kodak was on improving the cine films and the Portra line (which were connected projects) in that regard.
 

Film-Niko

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brbo said:
But were they sooooo disapointed in Color Mission II development that they stopped buying other Adox products?
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One stopped buying Color Mission, and another one reduced his usage of Color Mission.
I just think that a more realistic outlook given by ADOX would have been much better marketing. Personally I am relaxed, because as I have written, I have had severe doubts concerning the extremely optimistic time frame given by ADOX. Therefore I had no unrealistic expectations which could have been disappointed.
Personally I will continue buying Color Mission and Phoenix. I want new color film production to succeed. But I am also a "hardcore film user". I think beginners in film photography will probably react more sensible to disappointed expectations (also because they don't know how extremely difficult film production is, they think it is just a product like any other they are buying).
 

pentaxuser

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I felt that Harman's publicity dept gave the impression at its video launch that 2 newly qualified young chemists had been instrumental in the development of Phoenix and that it had all been done in about 12 months and that prior to that previous 12 month period the Harman R&D staff had little knowledge of colour C41

Maybe this was the impression that Harman wanted to give and behind those two newly qualified chemists was a much larger and experienced set of chemists who are employed 100% of the time on Phoenix development. However when you consider what it has taken Kodak in terms of resources to get to where they are today in C41 colour it does make me sceptical about a timescale of as short as 12-18 months to achieve anywhere near Kodak's level

We'd need to know a lot more than we do about what Harman's plan is in terms of recruitment of those with the right current skills in terms of numbers of staff required and the size of budget required to achieve Kodak quality in a time period of say 2 more years

It just seems a very "big ask" to expect this of a company the size of Harman and one that has been solely b&w for as long as it has been

pentaxuser
 
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